Weapons of Legacy

[Imruphel]

I really like the omen concept (especially in Bo9S- the sword that weeps blood if it harms an innocent is really evocative) and the awakening rituals but that's it: the other mechanics are very wonky.

I fully plan to use WoLs in my game (there will be one in the next session) but I'm ditching the penalties.

 

[Shadeydm]

OK then so it does sound like the penalties are still very unpopular. My question then to those of you who have been using this for a while is if the penalties are intended to balance these items how unbalancing would it be to remove them? Also how do you view these items in the context of the new pricing guidelines in the MIC?

 

[satori01]

Requiring the Feat and Time & Money requirements for the rituals would probably be sufficient. The drawback to so many of the weapons are at the end of their progression the weapons wind up not being truly the plus they should be.

At 20th level having an Intelligent +4 Keen, Holy, Flaming Icy Burst weapon would not be all that unusual. Now take a Weapon of Legacy item, Randomly I just opened the book to Caladbolg on page 48. Caladbolg is a short sword that ultimately becomes a +4 mighty cleaving short sword that grants a +6 enhancement bonus to STR,
a +4 bonus to bull rush opponents,
a +2 resistance bonus to saving throws,
a +4 bonus on the attack roll to sunder an opponents weapon and
+4 to the damage Caladbolg does to objects
Unstopable Cleave...you can make an extra attack w/ cleave even if you did not drop a foe
and the best ability: Imprisoning Stroke...once per day you can use the Imprisonment spell on someone you hit...standard announce you are using the ability before you roll rules apply..and there is a Will Save.

A pretty good list of abilities, that on their own, w/o penalties would be worthy of an Artifact. Now just using the standard feat rules, you would have to invest 3 feats in order to unlock all of these powers...which is a pretty hefty investment on it's own.

You would also take (at the end of the progression), a -3 penalty to attacks, a -4 penalty to Reflex saves, and lose a total of 10 Hit Points. In essence the sword becomes a +1 sword, the situational bonus to Sunder and Bulls Rush are reduced to +1, the bonus to Saving Throws reduces the Reflex save to a -2 penalty...but you very well might never use that bonus because a Cloak of Resistance +5 is almost de reiguer.

You ultimately wind up with a +1 Mighty Cleaving Shortsword, that is not quite as effective as a Shatterspike weapon at cleaving, gives a modest bonus to bull rushing, acts like a Belt of Giant Str, (not bad), and can cast Imprisonment once per day.

Depending on how you decided to treat the Imprisionment ability under the Magic Item Creation formulae, this weapon is reasonable to create as a top tier weapon, w/o investing 3 feats and taking other penalties.

 

[Kristian Serrano]

The other thing to consider about Weapons of Legacy is the prestige class associated with it. The PrC allows you to alter existing legacy item abilities, negate penalties, and advance as your previous class in almost all respects to that class among other things.

 

[kilamanjaro]

w/o investing 3 feats and taking other penalties.

The feats are bonus feats for completing the rituals.

 

[Zaukrie]

I love the concept, but I hate the penalties. They don't seem worth the reward. I'd want to give these out at first level, with power growing as the PCs do - it would really help with the roleplaying to have it start at the beginning.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Yeah. I've used WoL extensively, and I really like it, but some of the penalties are just a little too much. It's not too bad, but - for example - the progression that ends up with a -3 to attack with all weapons is too nasty.

I also loot books like the MIC to fit new abilities into the system at the assumed prices of WoL. (A=2000 gp, B=4000 gp, etc.)

Cheers!

Yeah, we also considered removing the penalty with all weapons but the legacy weapon, since a significant chunk of the weapon's cost is contained in its "+", but that gets negated (more or less) by the attack penalty.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

The feats are bonus feats for completing the rituals.

Yeah, that was confusing to me and others at first as well. They really should have come up with a different name for that.

 

[pawsplay]

Bought it, tried to love it, sold it, got on with my life.

I think its problems can summed up by three examples. First, there are two weapons that are a pair. However, anyone who tried to use and invest in two legacy weapons is insane. Further, that simple fact demonstrates that using even one is only less insane (but therefore still insane). Second, one of the items is called Bullybasher's Gauntlets, which are enchanted gauntlets used to punch those who oppress others. There is really nothing further I can add to that. Thirdly, there is a prestige class for those who wield legacy weapons. As it advances class abilities and has a decent hit die and BAB, even if you did not have or use a legacy weapon, it would not necessarily be bad to take 9 levels of it, if that were legal. The only balancing factor is that in order to qualify, you would have to have a weapon of legacy, a significant penalty in itself.

The rules themselves are confusing and ambiguously written. And even once you have a handle on them, you discover virtually everything written is a guideline meant to be broken.

 

[kenmarable]

OK then so it does sound like the penalties are still very unpopular. My question then to those of you who have been using this for a while is if the penalties are intended to balance these items how unbalancing would it be to remove them? Also how do you view these items in the context of the new pricing guidelines in the MIC?

I have honestly never used the penalties. I just scaled back the other loot they would find (because who needs to find better and better weapons, for example, when your own improves with you). Didn't seem to be a problem.

If everyone in the party has a legacy item, then balance is FAR easier. If only one or a couple people do, then you just need to make sure they realize that the legacy item is their treasure, so they shouldn't be real demanding when taking their shares of the loot, especially when it comes to magic items.