Weapons of Legacy

[kenmarable]

I am starting to get the impression that this is a failure of a product.

Personally, I think it's a great book. It's one of the few that I have used in every campaign to some extent since I got it. However, as I noted above, I ignore the penalties altogether, and (as I didn't state) also replace the rituals with my own events that fit the actual flow of the campaign. I'd like to use the actual rituals more, but too often things are jam-packed enough that we really can't fit them in.

So I love it, but most certainly don't use it RAW. All of this is getting me curious about writing up some alternatives... hmm...

 

[pawsplay]

Personally, I think it's a great book. It's one of the few that I have used in every campaign to some extent since I got it. However, as I noted above, I ignore the penalties altogether, and (as I didn't state) also replace the rituals with my own events that fit the actual flow of the campaign. I'd like to use the actual rituals more, but too often things are jam-packed enough that we really can't fit them in.

So I love it, but most certainly don't use it RAW. All of this is getting me curious about writing up some alternatives... hmm...

I have no trouble believing that other people might be able to get just as much value out of not using the rules in this book as you do.

 

[JustinA]

I have no trouble believing that other people might be able to get just as much value out of not using the rules in this book as you do.

LOL.

I will say (despite my criticism of the entire rule system) that there is value to be had in this book: Three-quarters of the book (roughly 150 pages) consists of lavish descriptions of actual items of legacy. While the mechanics are useless, the history and description of most of the items are quite evocative.

I plan to use this material as a fluff text resource. Most of the items so described will likely pass right through my PCs' hands and into the hands of collectors, but I think any opportunity to pull them deeper into the game world and personalize a treasure beyond a simply gold piece count is worth it.

So if you see the book being sold used and cheap, it might be worth it.

 

[kenmarable]

I have no trouble believing that other people might be able to get just as much value out of not using the rules in this book as you do.

Fair enough.

Actually, I do use 90% of the book. I just ignore the penalties and when necessary, replace the rituals. Between the existing items and their back story (yeah, Bullybasher's Gloves aren't the greatest example in the book) and the rules on creating your own legacy items, I'm getting my money's worth. Whether or not it is a failure is pretty much a personal decision on how much has to be ignored vs. what you use. In my case, the stuff I use far outweighs what I ignore. *shrug*

Of course, it would have been nice if the book had been better and I didn't have to worry about ignoring pieces of it at all. But it's a rare book that I don't ignore/rework some portion of to suit my needs. This one is no different.

 

[molonel]

The idea of Legacy Items is a great one, and the book is a nice supplement as a starting point.

In my opinion, though, the items in that book and the price you pay for them is horrid.

We started out using Weapons of Legacy in my WLD campaign. Everyone was eager to try them. But the price, eventually, was WAY too high. By price, I mean simply that it was like getting GREAT biceps but having your kneecaps smashed and useless.

Yes, that's an exaggeration, but that's how it felt sometimes.

 

[Felon]

Right, but making it yourself requires feats, time and XP.

That's not a great sales pitch for WoL. The point of WoL isn't supposed to be that they're efficient but otherwise inferior to standard items. They're supposed to actually be powerful.

 

[Jhaelen]

I will say (despite my criticism of the entire rule system) that there is value to be had in this book: Three-quarters of the book (roughly 150 pages) consists of lavish descriptions of actual items of legacy. While the mechanics are useless, the history and description of most of the items are quite evocative.

Exactly. I really like WoL and have got more use out of it than from almost any other non-core supplement. As has been mentioned by (almost?) all posters before me:

Don't use those penalties!

Everything else is great. After perusing the mechanics I decided to do simply calculate the gp value for the legacies. Unlocking a legacy is handled similar to item creation:
You have to perform the associated ritual, expend half the cost in gp and the other half with xp (using 25g = 1xp). This xp loss may result in gaining a negative level, temporarily.

Works quite well. My players like it, too.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I don't see the weapons of legacy system being so bad that I would expect another player to be a designated crafter for the rest of the party.

Its been my experience that a party typically has craft arms and armor and craft wondrous items. Those two account for the vast majority of a parties magic items, and effectively double the party's magic item purchasing power. Its like having a barbarian without power attack... yeah you could, but who'd want to? The benefit of those two feats are huge, and when designing a supplement abotu magic items, shouldnt be ignored.

If someone else wants to do a breakdown of another legacy weapon, I'd be curious to see the numbers. Perhaps the one I picked is exceptionally bad, and others are more favorable. But it boils down to the legacy items rituals costing MORE than what a crafter could make the same weapon for.

 

[Kristian Serrano]

That's not a great sales pitch for WoL. The point of WoL isn't supposed to be that they're efficient but otherwise inferior to standard items. They're supposed to actually be powerful.

Actually, no, they're not supposed to just be "powerful." The point of WoL is to have an item that grows powerful as you do rather than selling one weapon just to wield the shiny new one you found, which seems rather dry.

Its been my experience that a party typically has craft arms and armor and craft wondrous items. Those two account for the vast majority of a parties magic items, and effectively double the party's magic item purchasing power. Its like having a barbarian without power attack... yeah you could, but who'd want to? The benefit of those two feats are huge, and when designing a supplement abotu magic items, shouldnt be ignored.

That hasn't been my experience at all. Almost every player that I've played along with plays spell casters as either damage dealers or utility casters. No one has ever selected item creation feats either because of the time restrictions and XP cost or because they'd rather just buy the items or find them.

In the end, I guess it's a matter of preference. I like the concept of legacy items and how they can enhance the story within the game.

 

[JustinA]

That hasn't been my experience at all. Almost every player that I've played along with plays spell casters as either damage dealers or utility casters. No one has ever selected item creation feats either because of the time restrictions and XP cost or because they'd rather just buy the items or find them.

That really is quite weird to me.

In any case, I still don't see any logical reason for a Legacy Item to be an inferior choice to a Item Creation feat. If your group never selects those feats because of time restrictions and XP costs, then I'm somewhat baffled that you'd have any support for the time restrictions and XP costs of a Legacy Item.

If someone else wants to do a breakdown of another legacy weapon, I'd be curious to see the numbers. Perhaps the one I picked is exceptionally bad, and others are more favorable. But it boils down to the legacy items rituals costing MORE than what a crafter could make the same weapon for.

One of the reviews for WoL here on ENWorld did an analysis of an item. Here's another

Infiltrator at 20th level:
- +3 glamered mithral chain shirt (12,800 gp)
- Low-light vision (1,000 gp - 50% due to similar abilities)
- +15 to Spot checks (see below)
- +15 to Search checks (see below)
- Spider climb (6,000 gp)
- Darkvision 60 ft. (9,000 gp - 75% due to similar abilities)
- Comprehend languages (verbal only) (2,000 gp)
- Invisibility (6,000 gp)
- Detect thoughts (6,000 gp)
- Blindsense 30 ft. (30,000 gp)
- Nondetection (30,000 gp)

Penalties:
- -2 to Reflex saves
- -3 to Skill checks
- -4 hit points
- -18 skill points

Cost: 59,600 gp

With the penalty to skill checks and the skill point penalty, you can wipe out all but a +6 bonus to skill checks. So the total skill bonus is worth 3,600 gp.

Total market price for the item: 106,400 gp

Creation Cost: 53,600 gp (4,256 XP)

So, in this case, you're paying a premium of 6,000 gp to get a -2 penalty to Reflex saves; a -3 penalty to all of your skill checks except for Spot and Search; and -4 hit points.

It's not a deal I would take.

Honestly? The more I look at the numbers in this supplement the more I suspect it was created for the DM's benefit. Now you can give your uber-villain a really cool weapon (a WoL that they're fully attuned to), but once the PCs get it, it's a useless piece of junk with a low resale value.