D&D General Weapons should break left and right

From David Sirlin, Solvability:

The term donkeyspace, coined by Frank Lantz, describes the space of suboptimal plays. As described in the previous section, a good player should intentionally enter donkeyspace (in other words: play in an exploitable way) in order to exploit opponents who are also playing in donkeyspace. If both players are good, they each might dance through different regions of donkeyspace, jockeying for advantages.

It's important to have some perspective here. You might be thinking that everyone is going to play optimally so there's no dance through donkeyspace in high level play. That's laughable if you think about actual competitive games though. First, even at a high level, it's very common for players to play far from optimal. Second, it's highly unlikely that any—much less ALL—opponents will be playing optimally or even close to it. In a good competitive game, it's incredibly difficult to know what optimal play even is. There can be rules of thumb, but to know exactly the right probabilities in which to play a mixed strategy of exactly the right moves in a specific game state that could have thousands of variables? Even in a popular, well-understood game like Poker, optimal play is not known perfectly and in practice players stray from it considerably.

In game design, there's this concept of "donkey space", where you are playing like a donkey (as in, unoptimally) for whatever reason, whether it's for roleplaying, or because better options just aren't available, or to exploit an opponent who is expecting "optimal" play, or because you are a literal donkey. Broadly speaking, the more of the game is happening in this donkey space, the better -- that means the game isn't solved.

In this case, the situation is a little different: the suboptimal play is enforced externally, but I think the larger concept still applies.
My problem here is that what most people refer to as "optimization" is seeking to exploit enemy weaknesses--or, more often, to create weaknesses, since that's a thing D&D play permits that a simple game like RPS cannot represent--is avoiding exploitable play and over-reliance on perfect mathematically optimal solutions.

Further, I'm completely confident that all but an entirely negligible trace minority of D&D players plays their game by randomly determining what they think they should do, which nixes the article's definition of "mixed strategy" right out the gate. A mixed strategy, as the article defines it, is one where you (genuinely as close to random as you can) choose between two or more alternative options with a defined probability; no player is perfect, but you aim for as close an approximation as you can, so as to not be exploitable. Do you know of D&D players who randomly decide to cast a spell, or make a melee attack, or (in whatever other way) have their character act on a given turn? If you do, I'd be fascinated to hear their story, because it sounds completely alien to me.

Instead, most players re-evaluate the situation and go with whatever option genuinely sounds best. They tend to prepare a slate of possible choices in advance which are reliably pretty good. When they can pick (say) three things, each needs to bring something new or distinctive, usually in different arenas. E.g., a spellcaster will choose a reliable damage option (doubly so if it's a flexible one like chromatic orb), and a good reliable buff spell (e.g. haste), and a good reliable utility spell (such as fly). This doesn't mean that the game is in any way "solved", in either the technical or casual sense. Instead, it means that there are many choices, and when you have enough options within that set of choices, you try to pick the ones that you predict will give you the most bang for your buck.

And that exact same thinking applies to D&D combat decision-making. It's not random. It's very deliberate, because, when the options are well-designed and well-balanced, you simply can't make a calculation which determines the best choice--you must instead make an evaluation, based on personal preference, past experience, and incomplete but still useful knowledge. (E.g., the highest missed attack roll against an enemy tells you a floor for its AC, and the lowest hitting attack roll tells you a ceiling.)

I have a favorite weapon in Quake, it's the rocket launcher. I also like how Quake as a game is set up, that I'm not going to always have access to the rocket launcher or might want to keep in my back pocket for a quick escape, so I'd better also learn how to use all the other weapons.
And Quake is a different kind of game from both head-to-head competitive multiplayer gaming (which is what all of the examples given in the cited article are), and from squad-/team-based cooperative multiplayer gaming (which is what D&D is).

Are you familiar with the kinds of design that go into squad-based cooperative multiplayer games? Weapon breakage rules are uncommon in that sort of setup for a variety of reasons. Such mechanics aren't totally unknown...but they don't tend to occur very much.

I mean, I could bring up that Sifu (which you mention below) lacks inventory management mechanics, which is something D&D has. Would Sifu be better if you had to play inventory Tetris on the regular? I'm inclined to think you would say "no", yet that would absolutely add a whole new spectrum of "donkeyspace" options to investigate. So...would Sifu be better with inventory management?

Is that bad? Is that the game telling me that my fun is bad and wrong and stupid? Or is it the game making me consider my moves, and manage my ammo and positioning?
I would not say Quake is telling you that, no, but that's because it's a fundamentally different kind of game. You don't "build" your character whatsoever in it. You literally aren't anything more than your armor, your weapons, and your location. Hence, the only creative choices you can possibly make are...which weapons you use, where you are located, and how you are moving. D&D has far, far more axes along which choices can be made, both tactically (which locations to occupy, which enemies to target, which abilities to use, whether to heal vs deal damage, etc.) and strategically (what equipment to bring, what abilities to learn, what stats to build high/raise, which skills to train, etc.)

Simply put, you can't just Frankenstein together bits and pieces of different games. They come from a context. In the context of D&D, where you are rewarded for specialization, and often effectively penalized when you have to resort to off-specialization things. The Quake-like equivalent of what you're advocating for is that everyone gets to bring their customized BFG...and a crappy pea-shooter. Soon as the customized BFG runs out of ammo (breaks), they're forced to use the crappy pea-shooter until they can get more ammo.

You'd need to redesign D&D combat nearly from the ground up to make "your special weapon is only a sometimes food, the rest of the time you're grabbing whatever improvised weapon you can" an actually engaging, rewarding, satisfying experience. Trying to just bolt it onto the existing system will, as said, simply leave most players frustrated and annoyed, because they plink away for two or three points of damage all while knowing what they could do if the system weren't constantly taking it away from them.

Sifu, the best action game in the history of action games, has weapons breaking all the time and it's aggressively fun. Granted, unlike BotW your best weapon in Sifu is your bare fists, but I can certainly see a less kung fu game having a mediocre unbreakable fallback option.
Sifu is also (a) not a competitive game, (b) not a multiplayer game, and (c) as you say, about the specific martial arts techniques you're using, rather than being particularly chuffed about weapons themselves.

Imagine if individual martial arts techniques could "break", meaning you permanently lost access to them simply from using them too many times. Would that make Sifu a more engaging gameplay experience?

Is it, really? Because the way I see it, most of the time, people pretty quickly realize what weapon + perk combination is the best one, and never reach for anything else. And something is always going to be the best.
Yes, but what you are asking them to accept is: "You now will suck most of the time, except the rare treat occasions where you get to be pretty good. You should be happy about this! This lets you explore donkeyspace!"

You haven't actually provided an incentive to do this, other than the nebulous notion that there are ways to exploit enemy behaviors...but weapon choice essentially never does that in D&D--not 5e, anyway. Other things fill that space, or at least attempt to.

I think caster vs martial disparity is overstated, but I'm totally on board with screwing the mages over too. Hate their guts.
Whereas I find most people understate it, and would need to see what you intend to do with spells that would not, itself, just be another "here, have worse gameplay, and be happy about it because now you get to explore donkeyspace!"

Vancian casting where you have to assign specific spells to slots when preparing spells is very similar to what I'm proposing for weapons breaking -- you are often forced to just deal with the hand dealt to you. "Yeah I fireball would be really nice here, but I only have Fly prepared".
Perhaps. That doesn't seem to have been too onerous a limit back in 3.X, which is when casters were king. Even relative to current-day casters, I'm skeptical this would be enough. It just even further discourages quirky/risky spell choices.
 

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Weapon breakage rules, along with other fumble rules generally have the disadvantage of triggering when the character makes an attack with that weapon. - Meaning that the more skilled the warrior, the more chance that they will break their weapon in a minute compared to a complete novice.

If I were to implement this, I would do it in one of two ways:

1) Make it for improvised weapons only, and add the ability to get a benefit out of breaking or switching weapons to the improvised weapon feat. So you are enabling the archetype of the "Grab anything within arms reach and break it over their head" -type warrior, without disabling the "This sword is the soul of my family and it has been wielded by hundreds before me" -type warrior.

2) Make all masteries, martial feats etc innate to the character with them, not the weapon type. You can use your Sharpshooter feat and your topple mastery with a thrown rock. Introduce additional ways to personalise the character other than weapon choice.

Many spellcasters can re-jig their entire capabilities overnight. Even the ones that can't, can change some of their character choices more slowly. Unless your DM allows some optional rules, a martial character is stuck with their choices for the rest of their career.
So don't take them away.
 

I say turn it from a punishment into a reward.

When a character rolls a 1 on a Weapon Attack or Spell Attack, they can choose to break their weapon or spell focus and reroll. If they hit, it counts as a critical hit.
I like this variant a lot. Puts it into the player’s hands and you’d be surprised how often players love this kind of thing.

Edit: I mean how often players enjoy adding drama and self-defeating events onto their characters.
 

If you are looking to nerf big weapons or feats and such, I feel there are other ways to do this. You can just not use feats or houserule that certain weapons like polearms and great weapons cannot be used in 5ft hallways and things like that.

Others pointed out the problems with breakage and issues with fun and balance with other elements of the game. I would not play with it in my games, but there might be story reasons for it.
 



People citing items breaking in older editions arent considering that it comes about in specific circumstances, and each item gets a saving throw with magic items gaining bonuses to such saving throws based on their power.

It is a risk when faced with specific challenges, not a bad day with your swing. In 1e at least, I cant speak to 2e
 

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That's not at all the point. I think the angle here is to add verisimilitude without affecting game balance. If you have something constructive to add, great. Your post was not constructive though.
Ah verisimilitude, when you get tired beating martials with realism use verisimilitude as the excuse. Its funny how casters always avoid these beatings.
 


I think weapon breakage works in a resource management survival game where weapon renewal is a constant, and the players are aware of the mechanic as part of the entire system. If the game is about finding and crafting weapons, hunting food, and scavenging while fighting off monsters, then I can see this being a fun part of the game. However, I think a lot of modern D&D games don’t really allow for this and it would at best feel like it was bolted on as a punishment for martial players rather than something that worked thematically within the rules.
 

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