We're back to AD&D1

[Ranes]

I like the analogy.

FF, when I said, "You've got to be kidding," I knew you weren't.

People started talking about 3e rules bloat when the optional books began to appear. My point is simply that there's no reason to suspect the same language won't be used again in 4e's lifespan.

In 3e's time, when people complained of 'rules bloat', there were always responses to the effect that you could stick with the core books. I can see that argument repeating itself.

Plus ça change...

 

[PaulofCthulhu]

Having played both 1e and 3e, I prefer 1e. I guess I'm just not a big fan of tactical combat. I will be giving 4e a go in a couple of weeks but from reports, it may not suit my personal preferences?

 

[Fifth Element]

Since this has happened to every single RPG that ever produced books beyond it's basic line, why do you think this will not apply to 4E?

I would probably dispute your assertion, but the reason 4E might be different is that the system was designed in a way that could avoid it. I don't think it won't apply to 4E, I hope it won't apply. The designers' intent seems to be to design a system that can avoid this. So I just hope they succeeded in doing so.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Yup 3E ran it's lifespan and Hasbro wanted more money... 4E is their money maker, let's hope it's more Leopard than Vista ;-)

Well, according to some people the WoW starts now... so I guess it's more like Vista....

 

[phloog]

...I'm all in favor of dropping many of the truly excessive number of skills from 3.5. Come on, who really took the Forgery skill? ....

A bit off topic, but my current rogue has SF: Forgery, maxed out ranks in it, and has also maxed out Craft: Woodcarver and Profession: Scribe.

While it doesn't always come up in an adventure AS WRITTEN, in any session that doesn't take place 100% in a dungeon, it's up to ME to figure out how to make it useful...and our DM is good enough to handle it when I do. Also, working with the DM I actually GAVE up Sneak Attack in return for fighter-like bonus feats (with the restriction that any bonus feats taken had to deal with skills or stealth)...so I stink in combat, but I'm playing the character I wanted to play...maybe that's why I'm currently so snippy about excessive combat rules.

 

[Zinovia]

A bit off topic, but my current rogue has SF: Forgery, maxed out ranks in it, and has also maxed out Craft: Woodcarver and Profession: Scribe.

And mine has Fletching and Play instrument: drum (to accompany our bard when we perform - I even have a membership in TAG - the Tavern Actor's Guild ) I like non-combat skills but don't necessarily feel that the actual numeric values will matter much in the course of roleplaying.

My rogue 10 / psychic warrior 5 is extremely combat oriented, but is still the skills-monkey for the group, so I have to buy all those ranks in Search, Spot, Listen, Disable Device, Open Locks, Balance, Climb, Jump, Appraise, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble. That leaves nothing to spend on any charisma based skills (my character has a very low Cha), Forgery, Use Rope, Escape Artist, or anything just for fluff, especially given the ranks I didn't take for my PsyWar levels that I am making up for. But I took a few fluff skills regardless.

In any case, 4E has rolled a ton of skills into far fewer, but I don't know how the system will play out yet. As long as I add something covering background skills then I think I'll be happy with it. I really like it when characters can make use of their fluff skills in the course of the game, but 3.5 made it hard to do that by actively discouraging you from "wasting" points on those things. There were just too few skill points, no matter what class you were.

 

[Zinovia]

Well, according to some people the WoW starts now... so I guess it's more like Vista....

Meh. WoW has zero, zip, zilch roleplaying. There's a reason many people in my WoW guild play D&D. We enjoy both games because they are *different*, yes, even 4E.

Yeah, I know better than to respond to the 4E= WoW, Anime, Video Game stuff, but sometimes the temptation is overwhelming.

 

[Joe Sala]

Hey, I'm the one who started the thread a while ago

When I talked about "roleplaying", I wasn't thinking in social skills. In fact I tend to avoid using them and I make my players talk.

My opinion is that D&D4 is heavily combat oriented: kill the monster, take the stuff, increase your level. I know this has been the game's main philosophy, but maybe I expected a bit more. For example:

Background and origin feats, to better define the character.

More subtle powers for the wizard (where are the illusions? the enchantments? the knowledge spells?)

Advice about how to run mystery or horror games.

Adventures less based on encounters (you play A, then B, then C... one per hour of game play)

 

[Doug McCrae]

More subtle powers for the wizard (where are the illusions? the enchantments? the knowledge spells?)

Advice about how to run mystery or horror games.

Here's some advice on running mystery games - don't let the PCs have enchantment and knowledge spells. Why talk to NPCs or look for clues when magic can solve all your problems?

 

[Joe Sala]

Here's some advice on running mystery games - don't let the PCs have enchantment and knowledge spells. Why talk to NPCs or look for clues when magic can solve all your problems?

Sorry, I don't buy it. Many less combat-oriented games have this kind of spells, and it's the DM's work to balance them with the mistery plot. And I'm sure the decision to avoid subtle powers is NOT related to investigation adventures.