Were the 80s really the Golden Age of D&D?

[Mercurius]

SNIP
--Erik

Thanks Erik.

And I think I figured out how WotC got that high number--it came to me like a divine inspiration: They extrapolated not the total number of D&D players, but the likely number of player characters made at any time within the prior five years, including those that are still on active duty, those that died, and those that were just made for the fun of it late at night alone in mom's basement. If you take 5 million as a base, divide that by 63 for a Scientifically Proven number of PCs made per D&D player over a five-year span, you get approximately 80,000 D&D players, a number suspiciously close to the current member total of EN World.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I have played a lot of AD&D. None of those things ever tripped me up. I really don't see how #1 is an issue at all, or how #2 matches your description -- much less being a "mathematical quirk". With #3 and #4, we're dealing really with quibbles over "flavor" rather than problems in arithmetic.

Strength being the only stat that grants different bonuses for one subset of classes is clearly a mathematical quirk- one that rears its head nearly every time die are rolled in combat.

And AC plusses that subtract from your AC was a major stumbling block for many new players. Especially since it's counter to normal math.

YMMV, of course.

Trav used hexadecimal for stats ...

Not really, but to save space (and for "futuristic" flavor), values above 9 were often represented with alphabetic characters. <shrug>

Digging out my original books, I find this...

Traveller, Book 1: Characters And Combat, p.8

The Universal Personality Profile: Characters in Traveller are precisely defined using the universal personality profile (the UPP), which expresses the basic characteristics in a specific sequence using hexadecimal (base 16) numbers. In hexadecimal notation, the digits 0 through 9 are represented by the common arabic numbers; the digits 10 through 15 are represented by the letters A through F...

Now, while that may not be enough to qualify for true hexadecimal, that's going to make a certain non-trivial number of players throw a mental wobbler...I'm guessing at least 2B% of them.

 

[Ariosto]

Dannyalcatraz, yes, we have established that a little thing like A, B, C in place of 10, 11, 12 freaks you out more than an ocean of rules. I did not for a moment imagine that you really cared about the accuracy of your statement -- but I take it as my prerogative to care. In hexadecimal, 16 would be written as "10". I am pretty sure I have never seen that in Traveller, but have seen 16 written as "G". The main point was to avoid "2B" as much as "43" or "10", so that each digit in a UPP corresponds to a characteristic.

As a matter of fact, I have never encountered a Traveller player who bitched about it! I'm just taking a wild guess here, but maybe there are not a whole lot of World of Darkness devotees who "throw a mental wobbler" over the peculiarities of the game system and its jargon.

 

[Smeelbo]

No, the 70's was the Golden Age

I found very compelling the definition given by an earlier poster, for the Golden Age as a time when "Things Were Done for the First Time," really means that the 70's were definitely the Golden Age of D&D. An age of heroes, when man was closer to the gods.

Obviously, D&D itself was first published in 1974, and it really was very different from the games that existed previously. Rather than the rules providing for the resolution of a specific conflict, D&D provides for a sandbox, a toolkit for creating worlds and playing with them.

In 1975, Warlock, a D&D variant developed by students at CalTech and MIT, was published, both on paper, and on the ArpaNet. Revisions, expansions, and errata for Warlock were distributed on the ArpaNet, which was also used to participate in the first, primitive MMORPG. A persistant campaign world, an entire planet mapped out in hexes, was maintained, and the results of in-person, pen-and-paper D&D sessions were uploaded to the world model, the results propigating to the other campaigns. This was the first global D&D campaign.

In 1977, DunDraCon, one of the first D&D conventions, opened its doors at the Dunfey Hotel, a hotel in San Mateo built like a castle. Next February marks the 34th DunDraCon.

The late 70's marked an explosion of unauthorized D&D supplements: additional monsters, spells, character races and classes, alternate combat, skill and magic systems, adventures, worlds, fiction, art, magic items, all without the benefit of an Open Lisence, or lisence of any kind for that matter. Most of it was cheaply made, and enthusiasticly amateurish, but there was so much inspiration. Mention has been made of Earl Otus, but I saw his work for the first time in The Arduin Grimoire, by the late Dave Hargrave, a DM of fearsome reputation.

Alarums & Excursions was a D&D fanzine, composed of xeroxed or mimeographed pages submitted by dozens of authors and stapled together into a package almost half an inch thick. Art, fiction, alternate rules, campaign reports, and published frequently.

While not strictly D&D, the original Empire of the Petal Throne, itself one of the oldest RPG's, was the first detailed campaign setting. The boxed set included multiple, large, multicolored hex maps printed on cloth backed vinyl. We will not see its like again.

The late 70's also saw the first Science Fiction RPG, Traveller, still widely played, and Superhero 2044, the first comic book RPG. While neither is D&D, both are indicative of the primal creative power that characterizes a Golden Age.

So, I'm sorry children, but the 80's were definitely not the Golden Age of Dungeons and Dragons. The Golden Age is the Age of Heroes, an Age of Firsts, when Man was closer to the Gods.

If anything, the 80's were an age of disappointment, an age where lawyers made the Hand of the Law weigh heavily upon the enthusiasts with the command Cease And Desist! When the Arduin Grimoire and Alarums & Excursions and all their amatuerish ilk were extinguished. And for what? An "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons" that was less original and less playable than that which it displaced.

Personally, I found AD&D, both 1 & 2, nigh unplayable and quite uninteresting. I have seen the brilliant mad chaos of the Age of Amateurs, and am not impressed by the corporate pablum that drove it into the grave. Dragonlance, barf. Dark Sun, a thematic rip-off. Planescape, the answer to a question that does not interest me. Spelljammer? Gack. I continued to play Warlock at home, home-brews at cons, and did not return to the official D&D fold until the publication of 3.5.

I am not arguing that TSR should not have asserted its rights. I've worked at a game book publisher, and I understand the absolute importance of protecting intellectual property rights. Nor am I saying that the overall quality of the Age of Amateurs was all that golden. What I am saying is that creative chaos saw much inspiration and invention.

And that was the Golden Age.

If anything, we live now in a better era for roleplaying games. The creativity unleashed by the Open Gaming Lisence, and the Independent Gaming Movement has given us games, like Spirit of the Century, that are well beyond anything we have seen before. The amateurs, as it were, are now far more professional.

Smeelbo

 

[Ariosto]

When the Arduin Grimoire and Alarums & Excursions and all their amatuerish ilk were extinguished.

No, actually. Not even close. Both are still in publication.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Thanks Erik.

And I think I figured out how WotC got that high number--it came to me like a divine inspiration: They extrapolated not the total number of D&D players, but the likely number of player characters made at any time within the prior five years, including those that are still on active duty, those that died, and those that were just made for the fun of it late at night alone in mom's basement. If you take 5 million as a base, divide that by 63 for a Scientifically Proven number of PCs made per D&D player over a five-year span, you get approximately 80,000 D&D players, a number suspiciously close to the current member total of EN World.

Did you account for the users that are just alts?

 

[Erik Mona]

Believe it or not, science fiction fandom has been having this argument since at least the 1940s. I believe it was Isaac Asimov who said "the Golden Age of science fiction is 12."

I think that applies pretty well to this thread so far.

--Erik

 

[diaglo]

Believe it or not, science fiction fandom has been having this argument since at least the 1940s. I believe it was Isaac Asimov who said "the Golden Age of science fiction is 12."

I think that applies pretty well to this thread so far.

--Erik

OD&D(1974) is the one true game. All the other editions are just poor imitations of the real thing.

diaglo "been saying something close to this since 1979 when they stopped printing OD&D" Ooi

 

[Garmorn]

Thanks Erik.

And I think I figured out how WotC got that high number--it came to me like a divine inspiration: They extrapolated not the total number of D&D players, but the likely number of player characters made at any time within the prior five years, including those that are still on active duty, those that died, and those that were just made for the fun of it late at night alone in mom's basement. If you take 5 million as a base, divide that by 63 for a Scientifically Proven number of PCs made per D&D player over a five-year span, you get approximately 80,000 D&D players, a number suspiciously close to the current member total of EN World.

So you are saying that you don't believe that about 1/10 of 1% of the world population plays some type of RPG. Any thing from D&D to a Germany or one printed in India?

That would make only 308,059 players in the US of all ages, and games. Ok lets triple that to show a US bias over places like China. That still less then 1 million players in the US, and that EN World has almost 10 of the total RPG players signed up?

 

[Mercurius]

Did you account for the users that are just alts?

It was just a joke (although I have wondered how many users are behind those 85,000...maybe 30,000? And how actually check the boards at least once a month? Maybe 10,000? Any data on this, Morrus?).

So you are saying that you don't believe that about 1/10 of 1% of the world population plays some type of RPG. Any thing from D&D to a Germany or one printed in India?

That would make only 308,059 players in the US of all ages, and games. Ok lets triple that to show a US bias over places like China. That still less then 1 million players in the US, and that EN World has almost 10 of the total RPG players signed up?

I honestly have no idea. I could believe that 1 million Americans play some form of RPG on at least a semi-regular basis (although I'm pretty sure Dancey's figures were meant to refer to D&D players). That's one out of about 300 people? That seems like a lot to me, but maybe it is true.

I've always been fascinated by gamer demographics but have been disappointed with the lack of studies. But there are so many questions: How many people in the world have played an RPG? How many play now? What percent play D&D? World of Darkness games? GURPS? Etc. What I'd like to see is one of those microcosms where "If a 100 people play RPGs, x-number play D&D, x-number Rifts, etc."

My guess is that about 80% of RPGers primarily play D&D, and maybe 60-70% only play D&D.

But I digress...

...
So, I'm sorry children, but the 80's were definitely not the Golden Age of Dungeons and Dragons. The Golden Age is the Age of Heroes, an Age of Firsts, when Man was closer to the Gods.

If anything, the 80's were an age of disappointment, an age where lawyers made the Hand of the Law weigh heavily upon the enthusiasts with the command Cease And Desist! When the Arduin Grimoire and Alarums & Excursions and all their amatuerish ilk were extinguished. And for what? An "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons" that was less original and less playable than that which it displaced.

Personally, I found AD&D, both 1 & 2, nigh unplayable and quite uninteresting. I have seen the brilliant mad chaos of the Age of Amateurs, and am not impressed by the corporate pablum that drove it into the grave. Dragonlance, barf. Dark Sun, a thematic rip-off. Planescape, the answer to a question that does not interest me. Spelljammer? Gack. I continued to play Warlock at home, home-brews at cons, and did not return to the official D&D fold until the publication of 3.5.

I am not arguing that TSR should not have asserted its rights. I've worked at a game book publisher, and I understand the absolute importance of protecting intellectual property rights. Nor am I saying that the overall quality of the Age of Amateurs was all that golden. What I am saying is that creative chaos saw much inspiration and invention.

And that was the Golden Age.

If anything, we live now in a better era for roleplaying games. The creativity unleashed by the Open Gaming Lisence, and the Independent Gaming Movement has given us games, like Spirit of the Century, that are well beyond anything we have seen before. The amateurs, as it were, are now far more professional.

Very interesting post (I cut some of it in the quote to get to the key points and to save space a bit).

Given the traditional usages of the term "Golden Age"--as based in Greek and Indian (Vedic) tradition--I think you are right, which is what I was getting at in some of my earlier posts, although maybe didn't go far enough. It is also interesting to note your implication that we've come full circle to some extent, back to another Golden Age. With your ideas in mind, here's a new configuration of my "Four Ages Hypothesis" of RPGs:

• First Golden Age - 1970s, first ideas ("First Time"), the archetypal world, innovation, a simpler time, even an Eden.
• First Silver Age - 1977 to mid 80s - The First Time is brought into reality as RPGs make it big; major period of expansion; further innovation; commercialization.
• First Bronze Age - Mid 80s to mid-to-late 90s. Further developments and diversification. RPGs become "humanized" (story games, World of Darkness, etc).
• First Iron Age - Also called the Dark Age; this could refer to the late 90s when little innovation was occuring, when TSR went bankrupt, when "glut ruled the day."
• Second Golden Age - OGL and amateur publishing. PDFs. Anyone and everyone can be a game designer.
• Second Silver Age - 4ed. D&D market begins to fracture with 4ed, 3.5ed, Pathfinder, the Old School folks, etc.
• Second Bronze Age - ? If the pattern holds there will be some kind of humanistic development where the tactical/combat focus of 4ed (as with 1ed) is challenged by a new, more humanistic development (as White Wolf did).
• Second Iron Age - ? Hasbro sells/shelves D&D, decides against a 5ed. The demise of tabletop RPGs as a major hobby? Much of it is integrated into virtual (computer) games. A strong core lives on through the Dark Ages to begin a new Golden Age, and so the cycle begins again...

Speculating is fun.