Were there clerics in Lord of the Rings?

[driver8]

No, Iluvatar/Eru is the object of worship in Tolkien's fiction, not "nature."

While technically true, I was still being metaphorical in regard to Tolkien's emphasis and love of nature, and the place elves hold in the world (ie being tied to exist until,the ending of the world.)

Eru and the Valinor are the creators..Arda is the cathedral.. and the elves are the clergy. So to speak.

Anyways, from a gaming point just because JRR doesnt mention them doesnt mean there arent some sorts of religious figures in ME. And though the characters of Middle Eath are pagans (something Tolkien wrestled with since his creations were non Christians after all) there may be some very religious characters who revere the Valinor. It just wouldnt look like the DnD cleric which is patterned very much like a martial monk/friar of European lore.

That said, it seems like clerical/healing aspects could be attached to other classes perhaps as a feat or even as a PrC. I say this since the elves or least some of them would have a close relation to Arda/nature, and the Dunedain almost by definition are faithful to the Valinor, since their ancestors were the ones who survived the drowning of Numenor becasue of their faithfulness. This might have been "diluted" after centuries of intermarrying with "lesser men" or by general apathy toward the old history, but it might work from a game mechanic point of view.

 

[Ron]

Caution!

That resource is not one whose cmpiler consulted me, and there is a good deal of misinformation contained in the entries.

For example, the principal inspirations for the thief class were modern cat burglars and Zelazny's novel Jack of Shadows.

Cheers,
Gary

Never read Jack of Shadows but I thought Jack Vance's Cugel was a great source of inspiration, specially in regard to the ability of casting spells from scrolls.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Back to Tolkien I'd posit that there are NO spellcasting classes at all in LOTR. Not Clerics or Druids or even Wizards

All the magic use in LOTR comes from supernatural beings (eg Gandalf) or fey (Galadriel, Tom Bombadil etc) so Gandalf had a maia template which has some spell-like abilities he was NOT a Wizard (as understood in DnD)

There is a lot of low-level "magic" in LORD OF THE RINGS. For example, pay close attention to what Strider does to heal. Also, it is rather clear that Sauron taught sorcery to the Black Numenoreans . . .

 

[Gentlegamer]

While technically true, I was still being metaphorical in regard to Tolkien's emphasis and love of nature, and the place elves hold in the world (ie being tied to exist until,the ending of the world.)

Eru and the Valinor are the creators..Arda is the cathedral.. and the elves are the clergy. So to speak.

Anyways, from a gaming point just because JRR doesnt mention them doesnt mean there arent some sorts of religious figures in ME. And though the characters of Middle Eath are pagans (something Tolkien wrestled with since his creations were non Christians after all) there may be some very religious characters who revere the Valinor. It just wouldnt look like the DnD cleric which is patterned very much like a martial monk/friar of European lore.

That said, it seems like clerical/healing aspects could be attached to other classes perhaps as a feat or even as a PrC. I say this since the elves or least some of them would have a close relation to Arda/nature, and the Dunedain almost by definition are faithful to the Valinor, since their ancestors were the ones who survived the drowning of Numenor becasue of their faithfulness. This might have been "diluted" after centuries of intermarrying with "lesser men" or by general apathy toward the old history, but it might work from a game mechanic point of view.

At the summit of the Meneltarma on Westernesse was the Temple of Eru. It was defiled when Ar-Pharazon succumbed to the lies of Sauron . . .

 

[Desdichado]

There is a lot of low-level "magic" in LORD OF THE RINGS. For example, pay close attention to what Strider does to heal. Also, it is rather clear that Sauron taught sorcery to the Black Numenoreans . . .

Sorcerers are also mentioned amongst the hill folk of Rhudaur. The swords the hobbits used were also bound up with spells, and some of the toys at Bilbo's party were magical. While magic is certainly rare in Middle-earth in some sense, it's not so rare that only the Istari and "high level" elves can use it either.

 

[Stik]

Contrary to popular opinion, and despite the numerous elements taken from LOTR, Tolkien did not inspire EVERYTHING in D&D.

The cleric class was inspired by the orders of fighting priests which proliferated in Europe during and after the Crusades, such as the Knights Templar.

If you look at the history of D&D, you will see that the cleric predates the paladin. I suspect that had clerics been played as they were intended to be played, as holy crusaders rather than holy paramedics and undead repellents, the paladin class would never have come to be.

 

[Jolly Giant]

General - Were there clerics in Lord of the Rings?

Only in the extended DVD version!

 

[Celebrim]

Not being a great fan of the Rings trilogy, although I did enjoy the films and loved The Hobbit, all I'll venture in regards to the question of their being clerics in the books in question is this: IMO there were none, as there were no deities and no places of worship, not even sacred groves for druidical ceremonies, mentioned. Religion entails rites and ceremonies overseen by a cleris--birth, death, confirmation, wedding, etc.

Well, being a great fan of the Rings trilogy, I'll venture that Col. Pladoh is correct. They are not only not mentioned, it is specifically mentioned that they don't exist.

No good being in the LotR has anything approaching a religion. That is because although all good beings in Middle Earth are aware that it has a creator - Illuvator, The One - none of these same beings knows how Illuvator would desire to be worshiped or even if he desires to be worshiped. Therefore, they wisely refrain from worshiping Him or anyone else. They have no religions. They have no temples. They have very very few rites. Illuvator remains for the period of all of Tolkien's stories an unrevealed god. Only the Valar know him, and so the good peoples of Middle Earth appeal to them for intercession, but they wisely refrain from actually worshiping these fellow created beings. Illuvator is explicitly active in the events of The Lord of the Rings, but he doesn't reveal himself, and indeed only the very wise (like Gandalf) are capable of recognizing his plans for what they are.

In the books themselves, we see only one instance of something approaching a religious rite. That is the moment after Frodo and Sam have become guests of Faramir just before the evening meal Faramir instructs the hobbits to turn with him and his men to face the West in silence in memory of Numenor, in honor of the Valar, and to "that which is beyond Elevnhome and will ever be". (This scene and all its surrounding context is missing completely from the movies, because beginning with the capture of the Hobbits by Faramir, PJ departs from the text significantly both in the characterization of Faramir and his subsequent actions.) Even here, it is worth noting that Faramir and company are not praying in the usual sense of the word because they don't know how.

Elsewhere in Tolkien's works, we see only one instance of actual religious worship, and that is the custum of the Numenorian kings to offer an annual prayer on the summit of a mountain on behalf of the Numenorian people. In a strange way, the closest thing to a cleric in all the stories are the High Kings of the Numenorians - of which the best known example would be Aragorn. Of course, Aragorn doesn't fit neatly into any D&D class, as he's actually something more of a Paladin than what the D&D ranger has become. Aragorn shares with the High Kings of medieval lore and the Paladins of D&D something like a 'laying on of hands' ability, which Tolkien references strongly in the books during the Houses of Healing chapter in which Aragorn is recognized by the people of Minas Tirith as the true king because "the hands of the King are the hands of a healer".

All other acts of worship in Tolkien's works represent acts of worship of Morgoth or Sauron by false religions. In keeping with Tolkien's beliefs as a Catholic, all of these false religions tickle the fancy of Morgoth or Sauron, but they are completely vain and futile acts and Morgoth and Sauron - being less than divine beings - are unable to do any more to reward the act than any other powerful being could. So essentially, the only religions on Middle Earth at the time of The Lord of the Rings are false ones.

So, in short, no clerics, and certainly no spell casting ones. In fact, all magic occupies a rather strange place in The Lord of the Rings. Galadriel - herself a rather mystical being - tells Frodo that she doesn't know what the word means. In The Hobbit, the hobbits are said to have no magic "except that ordinary sort that allows them to disappear quietly". Yet, we can be pretty sure that hobbits don't cast spells in order to be very very quiet. In Tolkien's works, magic seems to be nothing more or less than the product extreme skill (at something), and is deemed 'magical' by the less skillful if they don't understand it. For example, much of Saruman's 'magic' in the books that we get to see could be considered to be nothing more than epic level bluff, diplomacy, craft, and knowledge skills and the cunning usage of things like gunpowder. Gandalf is definately the most wizardly being in all the books, but he's nothing like a D&D wizard and doesn't practice much anything like Vancian magic.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

In Tolkien's works, magic seems to be nothing more or less than the product extreme skill (at something), and is deemed 'magical' by the less skillful if they don't understand it.

True, to a great extent. Still, it could also mean that Elves, like Galadriel, see magic as such an integral part of existence that they don't see it as something supernatural, as is implied by the very term "magic" as used by people like Sam. To the Elves, "magic" is part of the Song of Creation, which would be the most perfectly natural thing to them, while to those with little or no access to the power of the song, it would seem to be above and beyond that which was natural. At least, that's how I've always seen it. YMMV.

 

[Celebrim]

True, to a great extent. Still, it could also mean that Elves, like Galadriel, see magic as such an integral part of existence that they don't see it as something supernatural, as is implied by the very term "magic" as used by people like Sam. To the Elves, "magic" is part of the Song of Creation, which would be the most perfectly natural thing to them, while to those with little or no access to the power of the song, it would seem to be above and beyond that which was natural. At least, that's how I've always seen it. YMMV.

I think you are quite correct in looking at it this way, but I don't think that the two views are incompatible but rather two sides of the same coin. The elves 'live in both worlds' and cannot distinguish between them. To men - who can percieve only part of the world - their ability to see and manipulate the stuff of the (as men deem it) 'spiritual' world seems like magic. But, to the elves this manipulation is just another craft, like weaving, carpentry, smithcraft, or as Sam discovered - rope making. Recall that when Sam first sees elvish rope, he asks if it is magical, and the elf responds that he doesn't know what Sam means, but that "certainly they are well made". I suspect that the elves just don't see arts and sciences related to things that men cannot see as being all that different than the arts and skills related to things that we can. The elvish seem on the other hand to distinguish between productive and destructive arts, which explains why Galadriel is so confused by the fact that mortals lump both her craft and Sauron's under the same word. It would be like having on word that meant by construction and destruction.

The best analogy might be if a blind person was speaking to one that was sighted. The sighted person might say, "There is a rock ten paces in front of us." The blind person - if he knew nothing of sight - might respond, "How could you know that? The rock makes no sound, it has no odor, and you have never walked this way before." The sighted person could reply, "Well, I see it." To this, the blind person might reply, "This seeing must be a wonderful sort of magic." - and in a way, he would be right.