Were there clerics in Lord of the Rings?

[sword-dancer]

The cleric class was inspired by the orders of fighting priests which proliferated in Europe during and after the Crusades, such as the Knights Templar. .

It'`s Nitpicking but, the Knights and fighting Brothers of the military orders were monksn not one of them was a priest.
The Priests of the orders from the other monk orders, mostly the benedictens I think.

 

[sword-dancer]

Middle earth has within the free People nothing of an organiced religion.
With appointed clergy, but this wasn`t usuall under the Pagans of the fall of the roman empire.
Heads of family and kins/clans, chieftain and Earls of tribes and Kings acted as "intermediaries"(right word) hold the holy rituals, giving the sacrifices and so on.
So there was no need for an special Priest.

 

[Klaus]

Caution!

That resource is not one whose cmpiler consulted me, and there is a good deal of misinformation contained in the entries.

For example, the principal inspirations for the thief class were modern cat burglars and Zelazny's novel Jack of Shadows.

Cheers,
Gary

Hi, Col_Pladoh!

Would you mind clarifying those resources (mainly telling which ones are right and which aren't)? I am in the process of writing an article on the origins of D&D-isms, and I was about to use that page as my main guide.

 

[Gez]

Think I'll just take your word that it's in the book...but searing light is just a ray of energy that does more damage to undead than everyone else. This seemed more like burst of light that specifically drives off the wraiths. Very much like a turning check.

He was casting light of Venya -- a sor/wiz 3 spell that creates two rays, each can heal 3d6 hp on a living, non-evil creature; deal 3d6 points of damage to an evil outsider or a undead, or deal 1d6 points of damage to a creature.

The elves would all be much more powerful, in racial terms, than D&D elves. Several of the Elf Lords would be Paladins (Glorfindel and Gil-galad).

Nah. The elves who have seen the light of Valinor would be more powerful, but that's not because they're elves, but because they have seen the light of Valinor. Then, because they have seen the light of Valinor they would be, in D&D terms, something like celestial, paragon elves.

Elves who haven't seen the light of Valinor aren't especially wise or powerful or super-duper-extra-kewl-munchkins. Look at Legolas -- he's a good archer (what with being a high level ranger/deepwood sniper), but that's all.

Anything that has seen the light of Valinor is especially powerful. Heck, there's a dog somewhere in the Silmarillion, who, just because he has seen the light of Valinor (and certainly not because he was an elf, he was a dog, you know, four-legged canine, Int 2, who barks all the time without reason and always tries to eat the postman -- yeah, that kind of dog) -- where was I? Yeah, a dog that, just because he had seen the light of Valinor, was able to take on Sauron's biggest, nastiest werewolf.

Sorry, it's one of my pet peeves. People always call up Tolkien as an excuse to justify superman-type visions of elves, when the true Tolkien elves, those of the black forest, are far from that. Re-read the Hobbit to see what elves that haven't seen the light of Valinor are: easily-tricked drunkards.

 

[Col_Pladoh]

Hi, Col_Pladoh!

Would you mind clarifying those resources (mainly telling which ones are right and which aren't)? I am in the process of writing an article on the origins of D&D-isms, and I was about to use that page as my main guide.

Actually, I would mind. My time is limited, and I have a lot of more inportant things to worry about than covering some other chap's errors of commission or omission

I don't spend time answering long email Q&As any longer either (but I do keep up with board posts).

Cheers,
Gary

 

[ColonelHardisson]

He was casting light of Venya -- a sor/wiz 3 spell that creates two rays, each can heal 3d6 hp on a living, non-evil creature; deal 3d6 points of damage to an evil outsider or a undead, or deal 1d6 points of damage to a creature.

I dunno, Gez. If it was a healing spell, why didn't he use it on, say, Merry, or Faramir? I think what is forgotten is that Gandalf was wearing Narya, the Elven Ring of Fire. The implication seemed strong, to me at least, that we were witnessing Gandalf using the power of his Ring, at least in some way. Sunbeam seems like an appropriate spell to use in D&D terms.

Nah. The elves who have seen the light of Valinor would be more powerful, but that's not because they're elves, but because they have seen the light of Valinor. Then, because they have seen the light of Valinor they would be, in D&D terms, something like celestial, paragon elves.

Elves who haven't seen the light of Valinor aren't especially wise or powerful or super-duper-extra-kewl-munchkins. Look at Legolas -- he's a good archer (what with being a high level ranger/deepwood sniper), but that's all.

So walking and running on top of the snow while others had to slog through it (including the lighter hobbits; it's in the book, when they try to cross Redhorn Pass, and is also in the movie), or being able to see much, much further than any of the other members of the Fellowship (for two examples) doesn't seem all that special to you? Remember, Legolas was a Sinda, as was his father, Thranduil. The Sindar hadn't gone to Valinor, and seemed more powerful than the Silvan elves, perhaps due to their proximity to Valinor on the western shores of Middle-earth.

Anything that has seen the light of Valinor is especially powerful. Heck, there's a dog somewhere in the Silmarillion, who, just because he has seen the light of Valinor (and certainly not because he was an elf, he was a dog, you know, four-legged canine, Int 2, who barks all the time without reason and always tries to eat the postman -- yeah, that kind of dog) -- where was I? Yeah, a dog that, just because he had seen the light of Valinor, was able to take on Sauron's biggest, nastiest werewolf.

Sorry, it's one of my pet peeves. People always call up Tolkien as an excuse to justify superman-type visions of elves, when the true Tolkien elves, those of the black forest, are far from that. Re-read the Hobbit to see what elves that haven't seen the light of Valinor are: easily-tricked drunkards.

That's an exaggeration, Gez. Two elves were shown to be drunkards, and the others just wanted to go back to a party. These were all Silvan elves, most likely, but that doesn't mean all of them were like that. Still, the Silvan elves were pretty good at appearing and disappearing in the forest, and making a big party suddenly pop up, as if by magic. Elves who hadn't seen the light were better at some things than mortals, but I agree they weren't the superelves the Noldor or, presumably, the Vanyar were.

 

[Sigurd]

Creation Magic

I think its interesting that you can make an arguement that the whole of middle earth was either devine or arcane magic or a more complicated mixture of the two.

More importantly however I think there is a good point that Tolkien was uncomfortable with non christian dieties and his story is far more about the very real power of man (humanoids) long after the high magic of his world creation. This is very analagous to our religeos world view today.

I think the proper type of magic for Tolkien is actually creation magic. Everything has special features according to its creation. The role given to it by a single creator of light. Aragorn gets his power from his lineage. Gandalf was created with certain powers -- when he says he 'once knew the spells of all peoples in every language' I understand that to be as he was created. His rebirth as Gandalf the White is necessary because he must be remade to gain power again.

Elves heal and are minor demi-gods - the first children. They do not teach their magic to non elves and barely seem to teach it to their own people. Those created with greatness aquire it. I think it is for this reason that they are dying out - they do not need to teach magic because they are magic.

Dwarves are too much of the earth over all -- also jives with their creation. They turn their focus from the upper world and concentrate on the lower one. Dwarves are a lot like the norse tales where they are present when convenient. Tolkien clearly was more fascinated by the elves (he says that in one of his letters).

The instance of Sorcery with the witch king of angmar is more properly a sign of the corruption of creation magic. This corruption is very similar to the adam and eve story - cursing those of the creators garden who chose to create in thier own name. Sauron & the Nazgul corrupt by seeking temporal power in middle earth - I think thats the lesson of the one ring as well. Tolkien wrote from a very Old English\Norse perspective where the greatest accomplishment you can achieve is living up to the promise of your ancestors. The pagan Norse claim descent from an age of heroes and the gods. Thats why Isuldur's fall is so powerful and why Aragorn's ascent redeems human kind.

Its why the elves surrender middle earth when their time has come. To be a proper part of the great story is the highest good.

I think creation magic is a sort of individual growth to truly fulfil what you were meant to be - like the norse pagan hero, like the struggle of frodo the ring bearer. Creation magic is neither devine or arcane (by D&D standards) it is far closer to lineage and etymology. Shelob was created to be poisonous that's why she is. The deal with the magic rings was too good to be true and whoever took the most advantage over it suffered the most.

I find it really frustrating that Gandalf cant whip up a globe of invulnerability, or teleport but I think the genesis of those kinds of spells happenned when a wizard said "It would be great if I could just......". There is less egocentricism in Tolkien's magic. You might make the magic help or hinder you under certain circumstances but it wasn't designed with _you_ in mind. The great plan is the expression of God - you approach great power when you get back to his\her creation or plan.


Sigurd

btw.
G. Gygax - I've really appreciated the child of your work. Thank You.

 

[Desdichado]

More importantly however I think there is a good point that Tolkien was uncomfortable with non christian dieties and his story is far more about the very real power of man (humanoids) long after the high magic of his world creation. This is very analagous to our religeos world view today.

Rather, he became so. His earlier writings such as in the Book(s) of Lost Tales were quite obviously modelled on pagan mythologies, and he didn't seem bothered by the fact that the very early Valar seemed an awful lot like the Aesir, or the gods of the Kalevala. Only later in life did he decide that he wanted to reconcile Middle-earth with his religious views and create a "Catholic safe" cosmology. Its a bit difficult to say where he was in that regard when the Lord of the Rings itself was written. Most of the works that significantly revise the cosmology were written much later than LotR; in fact, they are among the latest things he wrote at all, and were only published recently and naturally posthumously.

He was, obviously, uncomfortable with pagan religious rites, though, quite clearly since he goes to great pains to avoid them and always has.

 

[Gez]

I dunno, Gez. If it was a healing spell, why didn't he use it on, say, Merry, or Faramir?

I was obviously joking with that suggestion. And yes, sunbeam would be more appropriate.

So walking and running on top of the snow while others had to slog through it (including the lighter hobbits; it's in the book, when they try to cross Redhorn Pass, and is also in the movie), or being able to see much, much further than any of the other members of the Fellowship (for two examples) doesn't seem all that special to you?

Those are perks. They're all nifty and sweet, but that's the kind of "ordinary magic" that Tolkien gave to most everyone. So, D&D elves have a +2 racial bonus to spot checks, with a maxed-out Spot rank, an OK Wisdom, and maybe the Alertness feat, you could have a D&D Legolas able to see much much further than any of the other members of the Fellowship -- who haven't maxed out their Spot skill not benefit from a racial bonus. If you changed the elven trait of automatically detecting secret doors and maybe the resistance to enchantment and immunity to sleep spells in exchange for a (generalized) woodland stride, you would have a Legolas-compatible D&D elf.

That's an exaggeration, Gez. Two elves were shown to be drunkards, and the others just wanted to go back to a party. These were all Silvan elves, most likely, but that doesn't mean all of them were like that. Still, the Silvan elves were pretty good at appearing and disappearing in the forest, and making a big party suddenly pop up, as if by magic. Elves who hadn't seen the light were better at some things than mortals, but I agree they weren't the superelves the Noldor or, presumably, the Vanyar were.

Yes, Tolkien gave them a few fey powers -- just like he says the hobbits were extraordinarily stealthy. That's what he called "ordinary magic".

 

[Gentlegamer]

Nah. The elves who have seen the light of Valinor would be more powerful, but that's not because they're elves, but because they have seen the light of Valinor. Then, because they have seen the light of Valinor they would be, in D&D terms, something like celestial, paragon elves.

By Elf Lord I refered to High Elves, or Noldor, so you're interpretation is the same as mine. Glorfindel, for example, would easily translated into the D&D Paladin class. It is likely Gil-galad would, as well.