[WFRP] Hogshead Closes Doors

[Aaron2]

Again, it's a question of vocabulary. I can think of quite a few companies, or at least quite a few products from some companies that are not significantly different from stuff that has been published in the past, whether for d20 or before that. If these guys are selling their products it means that they have got it right. It's all that matters : they are making some customers happy. What I fail to understand is that being on the other end, trying to do stuff that is different from what has been done seems to be considered pretentious. I find that amazing...

I didn't make my point very well. I'll try again.

For someone like me to say that any company is creative or more creative than another is just showing preference. However, if I make a product and then claim that my product is for "creative" people, that's an implied attack on anyone who doesn' t like my product. That's where alot of game designers end up coming off as pretentious. Most will agree that its best to -never- respond to critisism except, possibly, to correct factual errors. Its almost impossible to hype your own product without seeming to attack everyone who doesn't like it. You end up with a statement that is read two different ways depending on whether you like or dislike the product. People who like my product will think I'm saying "if your not interested in it, don't buy it" while people who don't like my product will think I'm saying, "if you don't like my product you're too stupid/lame/uncreative/etc to appreciate it."


Sorry I used you as an example. It wasn't really appropriate.


Aaron

 

[Sammael99]

And you're misunderstanding. Nobody claims that doing stuff that's different is pretentious. People are claiming that James Wallis's attitude that "Nobilis" isn't for the likes of d20 players is pretentious. (And quite possibly obnoxious and offensive to potential customers, which might not be good for business, but given that Nobilis has sold out, that's probably not true at all)

OK. Maybe I am, although I my impression isn't based solely on what I've read here.

As to the effect on business comment, I have been surprised on the other end by some people's intense hatred of d20. When I suggested I would do a d20 Jorune on the Jorune mailing list some people threatened to quit the list if we discussed it online. I was no less amazed.

So I think positioning your product against d20 would probably help to appeal to a certain crowd, if indeed his doing so was anything else than losing his temper publicly (which, from what I've read on various threads is how I read it.) But we'll see what he says in the Ogrecave interview. If he confirms the attitude you suggest then I will profusely apologise and join the fray...

 

[JohnNephew]

Is that the angst-ridden cry of the bitter game designer I hear?

Don't get me wrong, I love Hogshead for what they did for WHFRP, but I'm going to take a little leap of logic here and surmise that they aren't happy that Joe Gamer is happy with d20.

What is it with game designers and that "blame the masses" attitude?


Wulf

I think you're making an unwarranted leap to say that James Wallis is blaming D20 for his decision to wind down his business. I've known James for about a decade, and I know he's been expecting to shut Hogshead down for a long while. It has nothing to do with D20 (at least never that I can recall in numerous conversations on the topic), and more to do with the fact that even a company doing as stellar a job as Hogshead has, putting out some of the finest and most innovative games this industry has seen, has a really tough time making ends meet. I would bet that James hasn't taken home much of a personal paycheck in all the years he's run Hogshead. Like John Tynes (who has no fear or blame of D20 either, since he wrote one of the two first D20 System licensed products ever published), I think he's decided it's time to move on from this hardscrabble existence.

Nobilis may have wound up positioned as a "non-D20 game," but that's just smart marketing -- appealing to people who are explicitly looking for something that isn't D20. It's also sold more copies than most D20 books released this year, I'll bet (from the sales numbers I've heard whispered). WFRP also has remained a solid seller, as far as I can tell -- but it's burdened by licensing fees and approval requirements and the like.

(Now James can prove me wrong by saying, in his OgreCave interview later today, "It's all D20's fault!" )

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

So I think positioning your product against d20 would probably help to appeal to a certain crowd, if indeed his doing so was anything else than losing his temper publicly (which, from what I've read on various threads is how I read it.) But we'll see what he says in the Ogrecave interview. If he confirms the attitude you suggest then I will profusely apologise and join the fray...

Here's the first Jim Wallis interview at OgreCave:

http://www.ogrecave.com/interviews/jameswallis.shtml

You'll have to wait for the later one posted today.

 

[Sammael99]

I didn't make my point very well. I'll try again.

For someone like me to say that any company is creative or more creative than another is just showing preference. However, if I make a product and then claim that my product is for "creative" people, that's an implied attack on anyone who doesn' t like my product. That's where alot of game designers end up coming off as pretentious. Most will agree that its best to -never- respond to critisism except, possibly, to correct factual errors. Its almost impossible to hype your own product without seeming to attack everyone who doesn't like it.

Sorry I used you as an example. It wasn't really appropriate.


Aaron

I get your point. I'm seeing this more from a marketing point of view. It is evident that there is a process of creation involved in any product, and that denying that would indeed be a criticism. That is obviously not what I meant.

I think different people want different things. In fact, I moved back to D&D with 3E because I was tired of what, for lack of a better word, I would call "heavier" RPGs. Me and my gaming group needed a break, something heroic and somewhat lighthearted. The fact is that now we've become so involved in the campaign it's probably just as heavy, but that's a different issue

I don't see the fact that we went from Mage back to D&D as an RPG regression. It's in that sense that I don't see "creative" as value argument. Is Mage at its core more creative than D&D at its core ? I think so. Is it better ? No. The best stuff is the stuff I enjoy when I do it...

As to your point about responding to criticism, I agree wholeheartedly. I believe Monte (him again !) wrote something about this a few months back. I'm happy of not being in the position every author is with the internet today of reading directly what people are saying and how they are critcising your stuff. at times, it must be agonising...

 

[Sammael99]

Here's the first Jim Wallis interview at OgreCave:

http://www.ogrecave.com/interviews/jameswallis.shtml

You'll have to wait for the later one posted today.

Well, having read that interview, I can only agree with him, even though I can see how he'd be evangelizing to a flock that is not willing to listen. I didn't read him knocking d20 players or d20 as a whole, though.

I don't think it's pretentious either. I don't agree with all he says, and in particular, I'm convinced that some of the appeal of RPGs to a younger audience IS in the rules (they certaionly appealed a lot more to me when I was 15 than they do now )

I guess we'll have to wait until the new interview is released to follow up on the discussion. I was glad to read about French RPGs but then he mentions a game I've never heard of. Duh ?

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

I don't think it's pretentious either. I don't agree with all he says, and in particular, I'm convinced that some of the appeal of RPGs to a younger audience IS in the rules (they certaionly appealed a lot more to me when I was 15 than they do now )

His interaction with Allan Sugarbaker is not pretentious. It's his interaction with fans that typically lapse into "you are not worthy." Do check out the RPG.net links posted on the previous page. You'll get to see a side of him that doesn't show up when he has a friendly interviewer.

 

[Marc A. Vezina]

I've known James for about a decade, and I know he's been expecting to shut Hogshead down for a long while.

Yep, we could see it coming.

It has ... more to do with the fact that even a company doing as stellar a job as Hogshead has, putting out some of the finest and most innovative games this industry has seen, has a really tough time making ends meet.

And before someone pipes up about capitalism and do-or-die, keep in mind this is a general issue in the industry. Even WotC had to dump staff to meet the Real World(tm) profit goals set to it.

Simply put: no matter how hard you work or how good your game is, you can't make money with it. That's what rattling the game designers' cage, these days.

If we're not doing it for the money, we do it for the fun. And if the gamers take all that fun out, well...

---
Marc A. Vezina
Speaking for himself

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

And before someone pipes up about capitalism and do-or-die, keep in mind this is a general issue in the industry. Even WotC had to dump staff to meet the Real World(tm) profit goals set to it.

Simply put: no matter how hard you work or how good your game is, you can't make money with it. That's what rattling the game designers' cage, these days.

Last time I checked, WoTC's layoffs were across the board, mainly because CCGs (which were a fad) were dying off, not because D&D was doing badly. (Several D&D business staff members have come forward here on these boards to say that D&D 3e beat all expectations in terms of sales volume and profit, just that it wasn't enough profit to offset declining volume in CCGs)

RPG design is turning out like many intellectual property industries to be like Rock Music. The top stars can make it and do well and make more than a decent living, while the average musician... Well, there's a joke that went around: "What do you call a musician without a girlfriend?" "Homeless!"

In this situation, you can either ignore where the market is going, or try to get out in front of it (thereby potentially getting run over, but also potentially doing better than expected). When I look at the shelves, I'd say that Sword & Sorcery Studios isn't just doing well, they're growing their lines by leaps and bounds. The same could probably be said of Mongoose publishing (sheesh, 3 new d20 games in a year?!!). So I'd say that those that got in front of the d20 tidal wave and took the risk and plunged in made money and are now in a very solid position.

It probably pisses the others off that they, despite putting in huge amounts of work and spending lots of their own money, are still struggling to make ends meet in their "boutique" corner of the market. I would however, like to remind them that most of these companies (Dreampod 9, Atlas Games, and Hogshead publishing in particular) were around 3 years ago, and had the same market opportunity that Sword & Sorcery and Mongoose publishing had the guts to invest in, but didn't, so in such cases, they only have themselves to blame. Now, if you didn't do so because you didn't believe in d20 (or because you don't like d20 fans, or whatever), then well, the ones who did believe in the d20 market *deserved* to win!

(I remember a post by John Nephew on RPG.net lamenting that he decided to go with publishing "boutique modules" rather than go whole hog, make a big bet, and publish "Relics & Rituals" type of material instead, pipe up if I'm wrong, John!)

In short, if you ignore market realities, you're going to be very disappointed. And this goes for anything you do, whether it's making computers, writing software, or doing RPGs.

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

Ryan Dancey on WoTC layoffs

http://www.gamingreport.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=54

When I joined WotC in 1997, the whole company, including international divisions, represented just over 300 people.

After three rounds of layoffs, and the separation of WotC's international business, WotC has cut its staff to just over 500 people. There are only two things that have materially changed for WotC between then and now: WotC owns and operates a chain of retail stores, and Pokemon.

Hasbro has reasonably asked WotC to keep its operating expenses under control. WotC has elected to continue to try to keep every plate it has spinning, including developing new brands, developing whole new categories (MODO), and operating a number of administrative activities in parallel with Hasbro's existing staff. To acheive that, while still meeting Hasbro's requirements for reduced expenses, it has cut staff, but asked the remaining people to just work harder to pick up the slack.

And there's no relationship between how succesful a business unit is and those reductions. The publishing business (RPGs, novels and periodicals) has exceeded its targets for revenue and profit for three straight years. It (and probably Magic) are the only parts of the company which have done so. Rather than keep that nucleous of staff working towards future gains, however, WotC executives, (who are, remember, the same people who operated the company prior to the Hasbro buyout) have asked for across-the-board cuts which have affected every department. Meanwhile, the people responsible for businesses which have never achieved their original goals are retained, and shifted from brand to brand - because that's the only system the WotC executive team has to keep all the plates spinning.

At some point, Hasbro and WotC need to get on the same page. Either WotC is going to be allowed to pursue any business that strikes its fancy and is going to be given the resources to do so, or it is going to be required to focus on those businesses which derive Hasbro the most profit and best return on capital invested. Until that happens, I hold Hasbro blameless of problems at Wizards of the Coast for anything other than a lack of oversight and control of the WotC management team.