D&D 5E What’s So Great About Medieval Europe?

[billd91]

As I said earlier, I tend to not be sympathetic to cultural appropriation outrage, but another reason I often hesitate to admit that is that I don't want to be lumped in with the usual sort of people who attack cultural appropriation....

Yes, and it's partly because people use the idea of cultural appropriation poorly. There are cases where it's clear and terrible - sports teams that use Native American mascots or even racist terms being a particularly strong example. But there are points where it really goes too far or without decent research, where the enthusiasm or outrage of the person making the claim far exceeds their understanding of the situation.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Nothing is simple, IME. Definitely a topic worth being considered and thinking through, not just sprinting headlong into potential social rejection because you didn’t consult anyone who could have told you that you were accidentally using a trope that has been used against a particular marginalized group, in your work.

There are plenty of POC who are part of the TTRPG and fantasy communities, so there is no need to act like it’s a question of hiring someone based solely on being a POC.
Sensitivity readers/consultants help a project avoid public ridicule, but also provide insight into how people who relate emotionally/socially to a culture will interact with the product even beyond “will they view the product as trashy and lazy due to ill informed appropriation” and “will people reject the project because it’s all about African and South Asian cultures, and the company hired people to work on it, but they were all white*”, etc.
Things like, “folks will be excited about this element,” and “this is an element that is normally overlooked that a lot of SA nerds wish was used more”, etc, are valuable insights. Because the western games/fantasy market is diverse, and POC nerds tend to have a better idea of what POC nerds want to see in a work that features cultures and faces that they identify with.

No, it’s pretty rare that outsiders have a solid grasp on a culture without becoming part of it. They often think they understand it, though, and are laughably off-base.

No, there is no such flipside.
It’s real simple. Power dynamics change the ethical nature of an action.

POC in the US have every ethical right to subvert, parody, and otherwise play around with elements of white American culture. The reverse is not true.

White American Culture benefits materially from the marginalization, both historical and current, of POC in the US and abroad (things like Apple factories in China, etc.)

Since White people aren’t being oppressed in any context in the world that has any impact on the lives of American POC, the reverse is not true.

That is a power dynamic that defines cultural appropriation.

Nope. The reverse IS true. Not everything is simple (as you said), that sure was though.

No one is untouchable. You can parody and subvert any cultural group to the same level of acceptability. Same limits. To say otherwise is racist at worst and at minimum an irrational double standard of civility.

 

[billd91]

No, there is no such flipside.
It’s real simple. Power dynamics change the ethical nature of an action.

POC in the US have every ethical right to subvert, parody, and otherwise play around with elements of white American culture. The reverse is not true.

White American Culture benefits materially from the marginalization, both historical and current, of POC in the US and abroad (things like Apple factories in China, etc.)

Since White people aren’t being oppressed in any context in the world that has any impact on the lives of American POC, the reverse is not true.

That is a power dynamic that defines cultural appropriation.

This is a highly political and politicized claim that fails to understand a lot of nuance that may be involved in each and every situation. Power imbalance does not give carte blanche.

 

[Guest 6801328]

No, it’s pretty rare that outsiders have a solid grasp on a culture without becoming part of it. They often think they understand it, though, and are laughably off-base.

Ever read de Toqueville? I thought his observations about America were pretty darned insightful.

But I think we may be referring to different things. I was referring to noticing unique/interesting/imporant things about a culture. I was not talking about fully understanding it.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

So if you had to choose another culture to mine for a book similar to Oriental Adventures or the new Greek-themed book, what would it be and why?

I'd love to have an Arabian Nights setting. I miss my Al Qadin and I believe Middle-East traditions are full of great stuff one could mine for fantasy role-playing. If I got the chance, I'd even create a Final Fantasy Tactics-style Calculator class or Wizard subclass, to honor the protagonist of The Man Who Counted. That used to be one of my favorite books as a child.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Nothing is simple, IME. Definitely a topic worth being considered and thinking through, not just sprinting headlong into potential social rejection because you didn’t consult anyone who could have told you that you were accidentally using a trope that has been used against a particular marginalized group, in your work.

There are plenty of POC who are part of the TTRPG and fantasy communities, so there is no need to act like it’s a question of hiring someone based solely on being a POC.
Sensitivity readers/consultants help a project avoid public ridicule, but also provide insight into how people who relate emotionally/socially to a culture will interact with the product even beyond “will they view the product as trashy and lazy due to ill informed appropriation” and “will people reject the project because it’s all about African and South Asian cultures, and the company hired people to work on it, but they were all white*”, etc.
Things like, “folks will be excited about this element,” and “this is an element that is normally overlooked that a lot of SA nerds wish was used more”, etc, are valuable insights. Because the western games/fantasy market is diverse, and POC nerds tend to have a better idea of what POC nerds want to see in a work that features cultures and faces that they identify with.

No, it’s pretty rare that outsiders have a solid grasp on a culture without becoming part of it. They often think they understand it, though, and are laughably off-base.

No, there is no such flipside.
It’s real simple. Power dynamics change the ethical nature of an action.

POC in the US have every ethical right to subvert, parody, and otherwise play around with elements of white American culture. The reverse is not true.

White American Culture benefits materially from the marginalization, both historical and current, of POC in the US and abroad (things like Apple factories in China, etc.)

Since White people aren’t being oppressed in any context in the world that has any impact on the lives of American POC, the reverse is not true.

That is a power dynamic that defines cultural appropriation.

also can i just point out that you hilariously say "nothing is simple IME" at the very start of your post and then further down the post you hypocritically (not just an ad hominen you can hand wave away. You literally do a full reversal so it quite accurateky describes the nature of the action.) say about something else, "no...its really simple". Did you forget your earlier statement in the span of the same comment? Hah!

 

[The Green Hermit]

Sir, you taxed our tea so highly that we ceased drinking it and switched to coffee out of spite. For 250 years! I can't imagine anything more British than holding a grudge well past it's time.

Also, I'd like to point out that more than half the world celebrates holidays or events based on throwing the British out. We Americans merely set a trend, and it only cost the French monarchy their national savings and heads. It's not our fault we occasionally have infectious ideas.

Or the Spanish.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Ever read de Toqueville? I thought his observations about America were pretty darned insightful.

But I think we may be referring to different things. I was referring to noticing unique/interesting/imporant things about a culture. I was not talking about fully understanding it.

Without understanding it, you’re much more likely to butcher it.

It’s it’s part of mainstream culture, like Greek or Norse Mythology is for most of the West, then it’s much easier to subvert, recontextualise, and deconstruct, from a position of decent understanding. If it’s an element of the culture of one of Peru’s lesser known ancient civilizations, it’s much harder to not come across as a tailgater in a plastic caricature of a war bonnet.

This is a highly political and politicized claim that fails to understand a lot of nuance that may be involved in each and every situation. Power imbalance does not give carte blanche.

No one said it did. I said that there is no flipside, which is an entirely different claim. Power dynamics define the ethical nature of an action. That doesn’t even imply, much less claim, that one side of a power dynamic can literally do anything they want. It just means that the same action does not mean the same thing on one side of that dynamic as it does on the other.

It’s a bit like your friend asking you on a date vs your boss asking you on a date. Same “literal action”, distinct “ethical actions”, for want of better fairly succinct terms.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

No one is untouchable.

This excludes you, of course

 

[imagineGod]

It's also a stand in for the Jidai Geki in Japan. There's broad trope overlaps between Feudal Europe (Knights), Feudal Asia (Samurai), and the wild west (cowboys).

I'd argue D&D settings are more than a little influenced by North American culture as well. Faerûn and its Sea of Fallen Stars is just as reminscent to me of the US-Canada boundary waters and great lakes region as it is of Afro-Eurasia around the Mediterranean.

Yes, the lightsaber fighting techniques area very Japanese

Ill assume you meant "empathizing"

Empathy is not purely related to knowledge at all. Its also not necessary to be of a culture to empathize with it. Also, understanding a culture's general psychology? I believe we call the skillsets psychology and sociology. Which are things that can be learned the slow and inefficient way (living there) or the far superior way (books). Way faster. Way more information too. Generally better understanding (with a few noteworthy exceptions).

Ps, oh yeah. Anthropology too.

I do not understand how to empathize with the alien Tyranids in the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Does it require locust thinking? Probably, this sort of trying to get into a different brain is what makes anthropomorphism a genre in its own right. RPGs like Pugmire have dedicated fans, though not me. And yes, Pugmire seems to flaunt some faux-Medieval fashions too.