D&D 5E What’s So Great About Medieval Europe?

[Imaro]

No. It is about having the "academic knowledge" as you termed it. All the other information you later mentioned can still be considered "academic knowledge". If you know something you know it. If you dont you dont.

How is emphasizing with a viewpoint and trying to understand a culture's general psychology... academic knowledge?

 

[Son of the Serpent]

How is emphasizing with a viewpoint and trying to understand a culture's general psychology... academic knowledge?

Ill assume you meant "empathizing"

Empathy is not purely related to knowledge at all. Its also not necessary to be of a culture to empathize with it. Also, understanding a culture's general psychology? I believe we call the skillsets psychology and sociology. Which are things that can be learned the slow and inefficient way (living there) or the far superior way (books). Way faster. Way more information too. Generally better understanding (with a few noteworthy exceptions).

Ps, oh yeah. Anthropology too.

 

[Imaro]

Ill assume you meant "empathizing"

Empathy is not purely related to knowledge at all. Its also not necessary to be of a culture to empathize with it. Also, understanding a culture's general psychology? I believe we call the skillsets psychology and sociology. Which are things that can be learned the slow and inefficient way (living there) or the far superior way (books). Way faster. Way more information too. Generally better understanding (with a few noteworthy exceptions).

Lol... ok Kyle...

 

[Jaeger]

…Newspeak Nonsense...
Ask yourself this: if you gained a Japanese friend and they expressed an interest in RPGs, would you feel comfortable having them be at your L5R table while you and your white friends ran that game?

I don't need an answer. (I don't even want an answer.) But really think about that.

Bwahahahahaahahahh!

You Do Not get to tell me what to think!

This is ENworld, not Room 101.

I would have no issue running L5R with a Japanese friend, with a table of my other friends for a very simple reason.

They would all be my friends. They know who I am and what they are sitting down for. And my friends are all adult enough never to confuse what happens in a make-believe game for real life.

As a general rule, you shouldn't produce content for public consumption based on the culture of a people you do not belong to, with the exception of making product based on the majority culture.

ROTFL... The hits keep coming!

This Doublethink statement is so utterly ridiculous on its face that you would have better luck trying to convince people that Santa Clause comes at Easter.

You don't get to Gatekeep who can do RPG game design.

You don't get to Gatekeep who plays what RPG.

I reject your totalitarian attempts to dictate to me or anyone else what RPG's we can play or design.

The question is about the industry as a whole and why there is a focus on Western Europe. And a big reason now is that it's more than a little bit inappropriate for white people to be making content using other people's cultures as a framework.
… Even More !!! Newspeak Nonsense...

This Farcical world view that you are trying to pass off here with your nonsensical Thinkpol talking points is cancerous to the RPG hobby.

It is the very antithesis of creativity, inspiration, freedom of thought, and expression.

The very things that have made RPG’s into the games we love.

Attempting to dictate with loaded rhetoric what entire groups of people can or cannot do in a creative medium like RPG’s is WRONG.


.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Lol... ok Kyle...

Lol ok person who thinks they should take a cat to another cat instead of a vet because the CAT has LIVED EXPERIENCE and the vet is just stupid vet who doesnt understand and empathize with the cat who is sick.

Yes. Thats exactly how much your logic follows. Thats how silly it sounds.

 

[Oofta]

So if you had to choose another culture to mine for a book similar to Oriental Adventures or the new Greek-themed book, what would it be and why?

 

[Argyle King]

Can you tell me why you'd think that?

I think that because intersectionality is rarely a one-dimensional thing.

Certainly, there are broad areas which can -generally- be commonly applied. For example, there are common cultural themes concerning the lack of African American literature in many academic programs, and that is something with which a broad spectrum of people may be able to identify.

However, it may also be arguable (and in fact is a point of contention in many communities) that a member of [insert minority group here] is not a real member of [minority] group because [insert reasons that make that individual more similar to the dominant culture]. In the case of Kanye west, his level of wealth and his political views can, in some circles, lead to him being said to not be "black enough" or some similar criticism.
(Note: I am saying neither that I support nor that I oppose this; it is simply to offer context.)

Similarly, black women are currently one of the fastest growing groups of Americans gaining college educations. At times, this leads to criticisms of not sounding black enough while speaking (while also not fully being accepted in some circles of traditional academia).

So, I "think that" because -while I agree with having diversified points of view- I question by what metric an "authentic" point of view be measured?

Additionally, if an "authentic" -based upon skin tone- yet inaccurate viewpoint were written, is that seen as objectively more valuable or more morally correct than an accurate viewpoint offered by someone with the "wrong" outward appearance?

This is an especially good contemporary question because identity is currently perceived as more fluid than it has been in the past, so by what metric is the authenticity of an author's identity measured through their work?

Certainly, I feel that there is value in seeing a topic through the lens of someone who has experienced in a way that I cannot due to the realities of how the culture around me sees me and interacts with me. I am not questioning the validity of seeking out other viewpoints, nor am I questioning the value of doing so.
I am questioning how the metric of authenticity (and the associated authority to be allowed to write something) is measured.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

So if you had to choose another culture to mine for a book similar to Oriental Adventures or the new Greek-themed book, what would it be and why?

Russian. Both because of its tie ins to what is there and the absolutely weird myths they have.

Lots of weird spatial displacement concepts early on. Could be an interesting place to mine for ideas of what happens when planar manipulation goes horridly wrong.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Bwahahahahaahahahh!

You Do Not get to tell me what to think!

This is ENworld, not Room 101.

I would have no issue running L5R with a Japanese friend, with a table of my other friends for a very simple reason.

They would all be my friends. They know who I am and what they are sitting down for. And my friends are all adult enough never to confuse what happens in a make-believe game for real life.




ROTFL... The hits keep coming!

This Doublethink statement is so utterly ridiculous on its face that you would have better luck trying to convince people that Santa Clause comes at Easter.

You don't get to Gatekeep who can do RPG game design.

You don't get to Gatekeep who plays what RPG.

I reject your totalitarian attempts to dictate to me or anyone else what RPG's we can play or design.




This Farcical world view that you are trying to pass off here with your nonsensical Thinkpol talking points is cancerous to the RPG hobby.

It is the very antithesis of creativity, inspiration, freedom of thought, and expression.

The very things that have made RPG’s into the games we love.

Attempting to dictate with loaded rhetoric what entire groups of people can or cannot do in a creative medium like RPG’s is WRONG.

As I said earlier, I tend to not be sympathetic to cultural appropriation outrage, but another reason I often hesitate to admit that is that I don't want to be lumped in with the usual sort of people who attack cultural appropriation....

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'm not saying don't do it, but it's not necessarily as simple as "just find someone versed in the culture".

Nothing is simple, IME. Definitely a topic worth being considered and thinking through, not just sprinting headlong into potential social rejection because you didn’t consult anyone who could have told you that you were accidentally using a trope that has been used against a particular marginalized group, in your work.

I am in favor of diversity and gaining multiple perspectives. Simultaneously, I am not so sure that I agree with intentionally hiring somebody based solely on an aspect not related to the work I would expect them to do. I think that would lead to problems of needing some measurement (which I would feel would be racist) of whether or not someone is authentic enough to count. Am I required to choose the first generation immigrant over a member of a family who has lived in this area for generations? (And, is it arguably racist that I would hire a specific person to do research and more manual labor?) The viewpoints of the latter, while likely different than my own experiences, would also be more Americanized and influenced by Western ideals.

There are plenty of POC who are part of the TTRPG and fantasy communities, so there is no need to act like it’s a question of hiring someone based solely on being a POC.
Sensitivity readers/consultants help a project avoid public ridicule, but also provide insight into how people who relate emotionally/socially to a culture will interact with the product even beyond “will they view the product as trashy and lazy due to ill informed appropriation” and “will people reject the project because it’s all about African and South Asian cultures, and the company hired people to work on it, but they were all white*”, etc.
Things like, “folks will be excited about this element,” and “this is an element that is normally overlooked that a lot of SA nerds wish was used more”, etc, are valuable insights. Because the western games/fantasy market is diverse, and POC nerds tend to have a better idea of what POC nerds want to see in a work that features cultures and faces that they identify with.

You (almost) touch on an interesting point: often it is outsiders who are able to see the most clearly, and have the most astute observations.

No, it’s pretty rare that outsiders have a solid grasp on a culture without becoming part of it. They often think they understand it, though, and are laughably off-base.

Perhaps the most disturbing irony about this particular issue is there's a nasty flip side that's been around a lot longer. If a heterosexual doesn't have the moral authority to play a homosexual, then how exactly does a homosexual have the moral authority to play a heterosexual? This would be why an actor like Richard Chamberlain chose to stay in the closet (until unwillingly outed) - to not undermine his credibility to play a romantic lead in a heterosexual relationship. Jane Lynch even cited this sort of thing as one reason she was reluctant to come out and why she understand actors who choose to not reveal their sex preferences.

No matter that someone may have good intentions about improving representation or resisting damaging appropriation, cultural or sexual (if that's a thing), it's a weapon that's got 2 edges that can lead to things that are also damaging.

No, there is no such flipside.
It’s real simple. Power dynamics change the ethical nature of an action.

POC in the US have every ethical right to subvert, parody, and otherwise play around with elements of white American culture. The reverse is not true.

White American Culture benefits materially from the marginalization, both historical and current, of POC in the US and abroad (things like Apple factories in China, etc.)

Since White people aren’t being oppressed in any context in the world that has any impact on the lives of American POC, the reverse is not true.

That is a power dynamic that defines cultural appropriation.