D&D 5E What’s So Great About Medieval Europe?

[Minigiant]

Re: Tolkien

I think it's the inclusion of elves, dwarves, orcs and goblins (together with the orc/goblin-like other savage humanoids), and humans who can be either good or evil, that had the biggest impact. That decision was made in Chainmail and continued on into D&D.

It determines the party composition, many of their opponents, the 'racial geography' of D&D worlds (elves in the forests, dwarves in the mountains, etc), and the wider conflict. The wider conflict in D&D world is good humans + demihumans vs evil humans + savage humanoids on the material plane, mirrored by a conflict between good and evil gods (or demons/devils) in the divine realm. D&D adopting Tolkien's idea of races being created by gods of appropriate alignment gave this a boost.

Yeah I think the inclusion and focus of races in Tolkien works has created a feedback loop.

1. Gygax uses Tolkien good races as the PC races and uses a strong alignment system like one found in Tolkien works.
2. LOTR fans flock to D&D due to the familiar aspects
3. Fans begin to emphasize aspects of Tolkien works in their games
4. D&D tables get more Gritty, Medieval, Tolkienesque, and European.
5. LOTR fans flock to D&D due to the familiar aspects
6. Fans begin to emphasize aspects of Tolkien works in their games
7. D&D tables get more Gritty, Medieval, Tolkienesque, and European.
8. LOTR fans flock to D&D due to the familiar aspects
9. Fans begin to emphasize aspects of Tolkien works in their games
10. D&D tables get more Gritty, Medieval, Tolkienesque, and European.
11. LOTR fans flock to D&D due to the familiar aspects
12. Fans begin to emphasize aspects of Tolkien works in their games
13. D&D tables get more Gritty, Medieval, Tolkienesque, and European.

Then boom.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Couldn't you say the same thing about medieval Europe?

Sure things like Crusades happened but WW1, 2, Stalin/Hitler/Pol Pot/Mao/Pinochet etc. Maybe ye olde Monarchs etc weren't that bad.

This reply doesn’t even make sense.

I’ll try again.

The crimes of the past century and a half stand out to us, but vastly fewer people per capita died from violence in the last 100 years than most 100 year periods in history, and the rate of violent death has dropped dramatically in the last 50 years, to a point where fewer people die every year than at any point in history.

This is a bit like when people refuse to acknowledge that the majority of players don’t take feats in 5e, because they see a lot of feats at their table. You’re ignoring total numbers and other statistics in favor of acting like the stand out events represent what whole centuries were like.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

True but now there's 8 billion of us or close to it.

What's the ideal number the earth can support. 2 billion?

Wow those goalposts sure do move fast.

We aren’t even close to any kind of limit, and the birth rate is dropping in most of the world due to more stability, better access to reproductive medicine, better sexual education, and better conditions for women.

But seriously, we waste vastly more food than is needed to feed everyone on the planet. Primarily at the farm, or at other wholly unnecessary* stages of the food delivery chain.



*meaning stages at which waste is necessary.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah I think the inclusion and focus of races in Tolkien works has created a feedback loop.

1. Gygax uses Tolkien good races as the PC races and uses a strong alignment system like one found in Tolkien works.
2. LOTR fans flock to D&D due to the familiar aspects
3. Fans begin to emphasize aspects of Tolkien works in their games
4. D&D tables get more Gritty, Medieval, Tolkienesque, and European.
5. LOTR fans flock to D&D due to the familiar aspects
6. Fans begin to emphasize aspects of Tolkien works in their games
7. D&D tables get more Gritty, Medieval, Tolkienesque, and European.
8. LOTR fans flock to D&D due to the familiar aspects
9. Fans begin to emphasize aspects of Tolkien works in their games
10. D&D tables get more Gritty, Medieval, Tolkienesque, and European.
11. LOTR fans flock to D&D due to the familiar aspects
12. Fans begin to emphasize aspects of Tolkien works in their games
13. D&D tables get more Gritty, Medieval, Tolkienesque, and European.

Then boom.

And Elric, Conan, Lankhmar.

It hits a lot of cultural touchstones.

Any attempt to stray to far from that probably is t commercially viable at least in numbers WotC wants.

Even something as simple as magic weapons being needed to hit critters draws heavily on Greek legends.

People aren't going to find the appeal of non European cultures that appealing en masse.

 

[Guest 85555]

Well yeah.

My point is, the more history I read, the less I want to be living in the past (particular times before things like modern medicine).

True but now there's 8 billion of us or close to it.

What's the ideal number the earth can support. 2 billion?

I think the number is like 9 Billion. But I don't see how that would make it preferable to live in a world where people die regularly in child birth, where a surprising number of women die in kitchen fires, and where even emperors are not immune to dying from a little cut on the toe that gets infected. The more history I read, the more grim the pre-modern world seems.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You see, to me, I've always seen people saying stuff like that as basically going "Things could be worse, so stop being depressed" which I hate with a passion.

But that isn’t what we are saying, and we will never stop confronting people with facts in the face of unrealistic pessimism, so...

 

[Zardnaar]

Wow those goalposts sure do move fast.

We aren’t even close to any kind of limit, and the birth rate is dropping in most of the world due to more stability, better access to reproductive medicine, better sexual education, and better conditions for women.

But seriously, we waste vastly more food than is needed to feed everyone on the planet. Primarily at the farm, or at other wholly unnecessary* stages of the food delivery chain.



*meaning stages at which waste is necessary.

That's an easy one to explain. Are you personally going out to feed the masses if not why not?

Producing that food also is having an impact on the environment.

Ye olde medieval lifestyle more sustainable long term

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Also don't look at the past so negatively.

I don't think medieval Europe was much worse than now in terms of things like warfare. It's been reasonably peaceful last 50-70 years.

What would have sucked is things like pandemics and wondering if you're going to get enough rain that year or worrying about crop failure.

Day to day life.

Even then still may have been better than latter on when things like reformation happened which collapsed the social security net such as it was when they seized church lands etc and people moved to the cities.

There is no rational argument that the Middle Ages was anything but less good in nearly every possible metric in nearly every place on earth.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That's an easy one to explain. Are you personally going out to feed the masses if not why not?

Producing that food also is having an impact on the environment.

Ye olde medieval lifestyle more sustainable long term

No, it wasn’t. And producing the food is one of the least egregious of the industrial factors of climate change. It’s a factor, but food ain’t why we are in the mess we are in.

I’m done. You’re not even remotely trying to hear what others are saying, you’re just dedicated to viewing humans and the present world as garbage, regardless of evidence.

 

[Zardnaar]

There is no rational argument that the Middle Ages was anything but less good in nearly every possible metric in nearly every place on earth.

Only outside of the modern era.

Compared to every other era it's not the best not the worst.

I'm sure in 200 years they'll look at our lifestyles and go wtf were we doing. To the planet if nothing else.