D&D General What’s The Big Deal About Psionics?

[Scars Unseen]

I don't really see mechanical complexity for its of sake as a plus

This is pretty much where this discussion seems to break down. I can't recall a single person asking for mechanical complexity for the sake of mechanical complexity (in fact, many of the suggestions and asks in this thread are objectively less complex mechanically than magic as it exists in D&D). People are asking for mechanical difference because they don't see the system of magic in D&D as being sufficient to meet their idea of what psionics should play like.

And no, I don't see a portrayal by a professional role player as refuting that opinion. I can role play anything any way I want, but that doesn't mean I'm satisfied with the result. You don't even know if they were satisfied with the result; you only know that they gave a convincing performance.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

This is pretty much where this discussion seems to break down. I can't recall a single person asking for mechanical complexity for the sake of mechanical complexity (in fact, many of the suggestions and asks in this thread are objectively less complex mechanically than magic as it exists in D&D). People are asking for mechanical difference because they don't see the system of magic in D&D as being sufficient to meet their idea of what psionics should play like.

And no, I don't see a portrayal by a professional role player as refuting that opinion. I can role play anything any way I want, but that doesn't mean I'm satisfied with the result. You don't even know if they were satisfied with the result; you only know that they gave a convincing performance.

To me it seems really be about being mechanically different just for the sake of being different. The ensuing fiction remains roughly the same. The game has rules for character performing telekinesis, telepathy, mind blasts and many other psionic tricks. Whether you use spell slots or points or roll psionic skill or spell attack or whether these are classified as spells or powers is mostly inconsequential.

 

[Micah Sweet]

To me it seems really be about being mechanically different just for the sake of being different. The ensuing fiction remains roughly the same. The game has rules for character performing telekinesis, telepathy, mind blasts and many other psionic tricks. Whether you use spell slots or point or roll psionic skill or spell attack or whether these are classified as spells or powers is mostly inconsequential.

I think the issue here is you see any more complexity than we have now as too much, which naturally leads to feeling it's there for no reason other than to be complex. For some of us, mechanical differences add to the feeling of the narrative. When the rules for psionics and magic aren't the same, it helps make the character feel different. This is especially helpful if you're not a professional actor.

 

[James Gasik]

So ... is there any equivalent thing that will negate psionics?

Usually, yes. In the past, spells and magic items (Synaptic Static and even the Annulus itself) were put in the hands of the DM to reign in games where you decide to run with magic and psionics being completely different.

Even in 2e, where this was the default, many spells could interact with psionics in odd ways (my favorite was Free Action blocking psionic posession- so mind control prevents me from "moving and attacking normally?" I'm sure my DM will love that interpretation!).

Which is why in 3rd edition, they made that NOT the default, because they realized that takes a lot more effort on the DM's part to have to make sure to add special things for psionics to interact with in their games. Far easier to say "funky terminology aside, magic resistance = psionic resistance, magic = psionics". Some psionics fans don't like this, but we have never been officially presented with a game where you can have psionics completely replace magic.

 

[Yaarel]

I think the issue here is you see any more complexity than we have now as too much, which naturally leads to feeling it's there for no reason other than to be complex. For some of us, mechanical differences add to the feeling of the narrative. When the rules for psionics and magic aren't the same, it helps make the character feel different. This is especially helpful if you're not a professional actor.

Gratuitous complexity is unhealthy for any gaming engine.

The only time increasing complexity is defensible, is if the existing mechanics seem unable to represent the sought narrative.

Even then, the designer must evaluate whether added complexity is worth the narrative gain. Sometimes yes, more often no.

It also matters how "deep" the complexity is - how many other frequent mechanics must now accommodate the new complexity.

 

[jgsugden]

So ... is there any equivalent thing that will negate psionics?

That depends upon the era. I have not fully scoped out 5E psionics as I was waiting for official psionics to see how to respond to it, so there is not a lot of meat on my 5E psionics bones ... just patchwork efforts as placeholders for key NPCs, traditionally psionic monsters, etc... As there have only been a touch of psionics homebrewed within 5E PCs, not in 5E.

In the 3E era - yes. Absolutely. Some of them straight from the books. However, the most popular were homebrew designs that attempted to do something different than just be "dispel psionics" or "detect psionics". For example, there was a psionic power that allowed you to usurp control of another psionic being's active power and (re)make all of the decisions using the opponents power points, etc... Very comic-book-ish. It was one of the few homebrews that many people gravitated towards, despite the high PP cost.

 

[Minigiant]

To me it seems really be about being mechanically different just for the sake of being different. The ensuing fiction remains roughly the same. The game has rules for character performing telekinesis, telepathy, mind blasts and many other psionic tricks. Whether you use spell slots or points or roll psionic skill or spell attack or whether these are classified as spells or powers is mostly inconsequential.

I think the point is that being mechanically different is more lkely to get the endpoint effects the Psionics Fans want than stinking to the same mechanics, doing the changes to recreate the effects, and having the discipline to not screw it up elsewhere. The game has rules for character performing telekinesis, telepathy, mind blasts and many other psionic tricks but they are wrong for the full fiction.

Basically,It's better to go to a sit down resturaunt than a sandwich shop to get a plat of Thankgiving or Christmas dinner.

Or how orcs and minotaurs are both strong but only one of them have horns and horn attacks. An orc with a horned helmet isn't a mythical minotaur.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I think the point is that being mechanically different is more lkely to get the endpoint effects the Psionics Fans want

Psionic fans can't agree on what they want.

than stinking to the same mechanics, doing the changes to recreate the effects, and having the discipline to not screw it up elsewhere. The game has rules for character performing telekinesis, telepathy, mind blasts and many other psionic tricks but they are wrong for the full fiction.

That's just, like, your opinion, man. They're not objectively 'wrong' in any sensible way. Psionics are not, real, there is no 'wrong' way. To me Imogen feels and comes across as a psion, ergo, the mechanics do not feel wrong to me. You're just hung up on some über specific personal interpretation. But D&D can't cater to that, except by a chance. D&D magic works unlike magic in a lot of fiction, doesn't mean D&D magic is 'wrong'. Also weapon combat works differently than in a lot of fiction, doesn't make it 'wrong' either.

 

[James Gasik]

I don't think it's that D&D can't support Psionics as a unique system- the framework of the game has a lot of design space that could be opened up. The question is rather "should it?".

As someone who likes Psionics in my fantasy, I'm going to say, not as a core option. Additional levels of complexity bolted onto the game as an option, as some players are naturally going to gravitate towards such things, are fine, but it should never be assume or integral to the game.

Some settings support psionics. Others do not. I, for one, don't see why we can't make some of the existing systems more complex, including spellcasting or even martial mechanics. But as modular components, not part of the core game.

There's no reason we can't have 5e versions of the Tome of Magic, Tome of Battle, or the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Some will buy these things and immediately add them to their world. Some will flat out refuse to do so. Most will pick and choose whatever is right for their games.

But again, I reiterate, Psionics should never be core again. When it comes to introducing new players, less is more. But it's obvious that many players DO want more, because just about everything WotC has added to the game has quickly been adopted by the players- they want to play Echo Knights, Artificers, Tortles, and Centaurs.

And I say, if that inspires their imagination, let them.

 

[Minigiant]

Psionic fans can't agree on what they want.

Incorrect
Psionic fans agree with which effects they want.
The part they can't agree with is the implementation.

That's just, like, your opinion, man. They're not objectively 'wrong' in any sensible way. Psionics are not, real, there is no 'wrong' way. To me Imogen feels and comes across as a psion, ergo, the mechanics do not feel wrong to me. You're just hung up on some über specific personal interpretation. But D&D can't cater to that, except by a chance. D&D magic works unlike magic in a lot of fiction, doesn't mean D&D magic is 'wrong'. Also weapon combat works differently than in a lot of fiction, doesn't make it 'wrong' either.

You missing the point.

Doesn't matter how much Imogen "feels" like a psion if Imogen cannot

• Mage hand can't be used offensivvely
• Telekinesis can't be used offensively
• Telekinesis is a 5th level spell so you can't get it until level 9
• Telepathic Bond is a 5th level spell so you can't get it until level 9 so AM Sorcerer needed a subclass feature get it early.

And that's just some of telepathy and telekinesis. It doesn't hit other psionic disciplines.

Like I said way in the beginning of the thread, Psioinics doesn't need a new system. However if you don't, the designers would have to be careful to not screw up nor break the Magic system nor Magic classes. And historicall when WOTC adds a bunch of magic expansion to the magic system directly, they break the game.

So if you want the Traditional D&D Psionics effects and access to them at the levels Psionics users had them, you need a Disciplined Designer OR a New System.