D&D General What’s The Big Deal About Psionics?

[James Gasik]

Yeah the playtest Sorcerer and Warlocks were really neat sounding, but then the PHB dropped and it was like, wait...what happened?

Wizards! Stealing the Sorcerer's candy since 8/10/2000!

 

[Maxperson]

Dispel Magic doesn't really dispel magic, just the specific application of magic that is spells. There's a bunch of magic stuff in the game that it can't dispel already.

I guess Dispel Spell would sound weird.

Yeah. I've expanded it to include general magic so that it works much like it used to.

 

[Minigiant]

The problem wasn't sorcerer playtest scoring low in the surveys (it didn't), the problem was that the wizard scored low in that particular survey and the outcry wizard diehards had because they "wanted spell points too".

My point was effort was put into wizards and abandoned on sorcerer. They just quit on it.

 

[SkidAce]

Right. But there is also thesaurus, and sometimes words don't actually mean different things, and that's the case with psionics. If you levitate things with your mind, you're using magic. And it also is utterly ludicrous to think that people in the setting wouldn't see it that way too.

A wizard conjures a rock to fly. People in magical fantasy land: "Yeah, that's magic."
A cleric prays a rock to fly. People: "That's magic too."
A bard sings a rock to fly. People: "Definitely magic."
A psion meditates a rock to fly. People: "No magic at all going on here."



I'm willing to accept that psionics can sensibly defined as certain type of mental magic. But it cannot be sensibly defined as non-magic.

SCIENCE!

 

[Bohandas]

They’re just different spells. They’re spells, but from a different source and maybe a lil weird, but not really that special. Near as I can tell. I am sure I’m missing something because every time Dark Sun comes up there’s a grip ton of hand wringing about getting Psionics right. It just seems like spells to me. Spells with a different but not much different rule system. Sorcerer, but with unique spells. I don’t get why it’s a big deal and why it’s not just a different spell list. Help me understand. Or confirm, it’s just spells With a new name.

It's not just different names, it's also woo-woo 70's crystals

 

[James Gasik]

Dark Sun was written with the implicit assumption that psionics =/= magic, because the setting has A) special rules about magic, and B) everyone is assumed to have some degree of psionic ability. Delving into both arts is required to transform into some of the most powerful entities of magic in the setting, a Dragon or an Avangion.

So to make Psionics just another magic means you have to toss out a lot of the setting's lore, and naturally, fans of Dark Sun aren't too keen on that idea.

 

[Minigiant]

Herer's the thing
The magic =/= psionics thing really doesn't matter.

The problem is

Animate Objects
Bigby's Hand
Rary's Telepathic Bond
Dominate Person
Dream
Seeming
Scrying
Telekinesis
Telepathy
Wall of Force

Are all traditional D&D and other Media Psionic effects. However they are all 5th level. Meaning you have to be 9th level to get it and you can't do it often until very high level.

In D&D, Arcane and Divine power sources get Psionincs at Mid-High level whereas Psionic power source gets Psioincs are Very Low level.
The balancing point was the Psioincs Users got weaker versions at low level and used points to match or exceed the Arcane version by Mid level.

So why don't we make low level versions of the these spells?

Because 5e allows spellcasters to snag 1st and now 2nd level spells with feats and allows spellcasters to stack slots, cantrips power, and prepared spells. If you make the effects 1st level spells, you are effectively giving them to wizards, clerics, and every other caster for little cost. This thus nueters the point of having psioinic classes.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Dark Sun was written with the implicit assumption that psionics =/= magic, because the setting has A) special rules about magic, and B) everyone is assumed to have some degree of psionic ability. Delving into both arts is required to transform into some of the most powerful entities of magic in the setting, a Dragon or an Avangion.

So to make Psionics just another magic means you have to toss out a lot of the setting's lore, and naturally, fans of Dark Sun aren't too keen on that idea.

No, what is important that arcane magic has adverse environmental effects, so it matters that psionics is not arcane magic. It can still be magic just fine.

 

[James Gasik]

The first novel of the Prism Pentad had a Psionicist dueling with a Wizard over mental control of another person, and it's presented that two two arts are wholly different. Maybe that's not a huge deal, but some people obviously think it is.

 

[glass]

If you're intentionally manipulating the reality via supernatural effects, manifesting supernatural phenomena, then you're practicing magic. That's what the word means. And it seems highly incoherent for one manifestation being magic, but other, exactly similar manifestation not.

Says you. I prefer my supernatural effects not to be limited to just one type.

Why does it matter to you that it is not called magic?

Well, I would phrase it as "is defined as not magic" rather than "is not called magic", but YMMV on that. Anyway, it is probably because my first impression to psionics came from the 2e Complete Psionics Handbook, and that impression was cemented by Dark Sun. But the "why" does not really matter. I like what I like.

Dispel Magic doesn't really dispel magic, just the specific application of magic that is spells. There's a bunch of magic stuff in the game that it can't dispel already.

Yeah, I knew putting in a specific example would lead to people nitpicking the example rather than engaging with the point.

It is possible to want the world to mostly resemble real world physics, and still ignore the square-cube law.

Which is fine. But people who prefer that do not get to pretend that "ignoring the square-cube law" is not supernatural from a real-world POV, nor that their preferences are superior to others'.

_
glass.