D&D General What’s The Big Deal About Psionics?

[Crimson Longinus]

I could see a better sorcerer becoming a psion, actually, giving them a pile of "psionic points" (sorcery points) that they turn into "power slots" (spell slots) to manifest their abilities on the fly. But then I realized that would probably be better than the Sorcerer in every way.

Sure. But you can just delete the original sorcerer and pretend it never happened.

 

[MoonSong]

Fair enough. The Sorcerer is part of an already ongoing D&D tradition.

Painfully it is a tradition that has run dry. The 3e Sorcerer class was a wizard casting wozard spells, but its niche was mechanical only, having spontaneous spellcasting. But later, the Warlock and the Psion stole that niche from it. And now in 4e and 5e, all spellcasting is spontaneous. So the 3e Sorcerer no longer exists. 4e made the Sorcerer a "striker" Wizard instead, and 5e made it the "metamagic" Wizard, instead. The 3e Sorcerer is dead.

The theme of bloodline is in each tradition, but is vague and inconsistent, and is never explained mechanically, except sometimes as a flavors for different subclasses.

There is no going to the 3e Sorcerer. There is only forward. What should a "sorcerer" concept do now? Is it worth hanging on to a name that lacks meaningful mechanics?

Mechanically? It is over the place and that is ok. Thematically, the sorcerer is needed as a yang to wizard's yin. The Mage/MU/Wizard is both rigid and iconic. It can't be changed without D&D losing something D&D, but it can only cover so many character concepts and backstories. The sorcerer is needed to fill the gaps (which at times are more than what the wizard can fill). To be emotional where the wizard is logical, to be unwilling and reluctant where the wizard is driven, to be nature to wizard's nurture. It also covers a lot of how magic users function in popular fiction and folklore of certain places. To date no single implementation has achieved that theme to the fullest, so it is best that the mechanics remain fluid.

Even the existence of other casting classes doesn't negate the need for the sorcerer, because the sorcerer is the only caster class that isn't the character's choice. All other casters require their members took actions to become their class -study, train with a mentor, join the church, do forbidden rituals,...- the sorcerer is unique in this regard, nobody chooses nor can choose to be a sorcerer. That alone provides for a wealth of character concepts that are impossible otherwise. And as somebody once told in these forums, sorcerers are the Xmen of D&D.

 

[James Gasik]

I'd like to. I was so disappointed with my Wild Magic Sorcerer that I will probably never play another Sorcerer, even if some of the newer subclasses are better. I constantly felt like I would have been better off playing a Wizard.

 

[MoonSong]

I don't sees the point of the sorcerer line for a vehicle for psionics.

WotC designed the sorcerer with shallow mechanical execution and a niche spell list despite the wide range of possible archetypes. Had they designed sorcerer with a wide base breadth, we could have tweaked it to be psions, wilders, aberrant minds, ardents, battle minds, and other psionic archetypes. But it wasn't.

The thing was put together at the eleventh hour by people who didn't want it in the game but had to. It was barely playable until the designers noticed we were playing it wrong, at which point they issued errata that made it unplayable and only later they gave us a couple of "ok" subclasses. At this point I'm only grateful it exists at all.

Of course I can still hope one day we get a sorcerer that actually lives to its potential.

 

[MoonSong]

I could see a better sorcerer becoming a psion, actually, giving them a pile of "psionic points" (sorcery points) that they turn into "power slots" (spell slots) to manifest their abilities on the fly. But then I realized that would probably be better than the Sorcerer in every way.

I'm not opposed to a better sorcerer. At all...

 

[Maxperson]

The Psion doesn't need fiddly mechanics.

The Spell using Psion needs about 40 new spells with at least 3/4 of them being exclusive to the psionic classes to not be a waste of paper or a source of major argument.

That's the choice: New Mechanics or Two to three dozen new exclusive spells.

That's the choice. "But but but" That's the choice if you want a Psion that isn't a disappointment.

I reject your False Dichotomy. You don't need that many exclusive powers. And it's not between new powers and new mechanics, since you can have both.

 

[Cadence]

That is the definition in the academic circles that I deal with, for archeology.

Google scholaring, it looks like in some cultures there is the connection, but the two anthropology dictionaries I cited above seem to be against it being the general meaning. :::shrugs:::

Do you have a favorite general anthropology text/article/dictionary that defines it with using spirits as a major or required thing for sorcery in general? (Only one I found that was definitely the definition you've heard was a web-page at Oregon State).

In any case... random googling got me away from some work.

Just going through google scholar, Bleyenberg & Stroeken (2017) - Anthropology and Medicine - discuss how a rash is viewed in Tanzania: "pese is Bembe sorcery [using a powder], now found in Kigoma, while kisigo is a disagreement between a local bad spirit and one's ancestral protective ancestor". In one area the rash is viewed as the first, it is viewed as the second in another, and the two accounts have been merged in some areas with the sorcerer sending the kisigo spirit.

Bratrud (2021) book chapter about Melanesia have some sorcery involving sprits and some not, they "deliberately manipulate spirits and use poisonous plants and toxics to cause sickness, death and misfortune to those who frustrate them." He notes that "As argued by John Himugu (2015), it is therefore important to have a clear understanding of the particular cultural context of the sorcery notion in question." Himugu notes three distinct things in the beliefs of the Huli of New Guinea are called sorcery in English: "poisons (tomia), spells (gamugamu) or spirts (dama) for invoking spiritual powers and forces." The use of dama are "the most dangerous form of sorcery" for them.

Looking up the case of Kuru in the Fore society, it looks like there were believed to be two types of illnesses - those caused by other humans (using rituals done by sorcerers using different materials) and those caused by nature spirits (not resulting from sorcerers) - Linderbaum, 1971 - there is no mention of the former rituals using separate spirits.

 

[Minigiant]

I reject your False Dichotomy. You don't need that many exclusive powers. And it's not between new powers and new mechanics, since you can have both.

I reject your low bar.

The situation is that a section of the community is okay with new classes but not adding many new ideas and concepts to the game.

The issue is that isn't how classes are designed anymore. Classes require new elements and a hefty chunk of them.

This sizeable percentage of the community has to choose:

• A spell using Psion with a large chunk of new spells exclusive to the class that other classes cannot get easily.
• A spell using Psion with a few moderately weight class features which open up new ways to interact with spells, magic, and the world
• A nonspell using Psions that duplicates many spell effects and creates new ones
• Some combination of the above.

There is not version of simple Psionic Classes that doesn't have a bunch of new exclusively Psionic stuff which doesn't create a virtual riot.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

• A spell using Psion with a large chunk of new spells exclusive to the class that other classes cannot get easily.
• A spell using Psion with a few moderately weight class features which open up new ways to interact with spells, magic, and the world

Conceptually either of these would be fine by me.

 

[Maxperson]

I reject your low bar.

My bar is higher than yours. You claimed a dichotomy. My option of both sets my bar higher than your low one.

The situation is that a section of the community is okay with new classes but not adding many new ideas and concepts to the game.

There's a section of the community that doesn't like hit points or armor class, too. If you want the section of the community who is not okay with adding new ideas or concepts as an impediment, you need to show that it's as large or larger than the section that wants it. Or at the very least a very sizable minority.

The issue is that isn't how classes are designed anymore. Classes require new elements and a hefty chunk of them.

I point you to the artificer. Clearly they aren't shying away from classes with new elements.

This sizeable percentage of the community has to choose:

• A spell using Psion with a large chunk of new spells exclusive to the class that other classes cannot get easily.
• A spell using Psion with a few moderately weight class features which open up new ways to interact with spells, magic, and the world
• A nonspell using Psions that duplicates many spell effects and creates new ones
• Some combination of the above.

There is not version of simple Psionic Classes that doesn't have a bunch of new exclusively Psionic stuff which doesn't create a virtual riot.

WotC stopped having the community choose a while ago. WotC is the only choice that matters right now, and they have shown a willingness to make new classes, design new psionic mechanics, and work to put out good stuff.

And you need to show that the section of the community you are talking about is as sizable as you are claiming.