What about my dragonborn

[Gorgoroth]

...

I will say it and pray it out loud with the rest in here. Dragonborn who cannot gain a proper fly speed without multiclassing to get favored soul PP wings is one of the biggest, asinine blunders of 4e for me. I spent so many hours thinking up ways to get flight earlier, to match my mini which I made painstakingly with parts bowdlerized from other minis. I will post a pic here soon. It's pretty kewl.

Then, I ended up playing pathfinder and can do the same, but better and much earlier level, with either synthesist or a beastmorph alchemist (okay, only three hours of flight at level 6...good enough). I really don't see what the big deal is with a fly speed. A wizard in a decent edition of D&D rules will be able to fly at level 5 (or 3, in case Alter Self can grow you wings too) and do all sorts of fun stuff. The easy DM antidote? 5cp quivers in every army or group of soldiers. See a flying dragon man? Shoot first, ask questions later. I mean, this IS D&D. You'd probably get hunted down by other adventurers for your scales, let alone shot down by the city guard.

Seriously, there are easy peasy ways for DMs to counter a permanent fly speed. It's called a turkey shoot. Or whatever those brits do. You know, the birds fly up and 50 gun shots go off then the dogs run to bring the carcasses back. Unless you can fly and be invisible at the same time too, but in PF for example, invis doesn't last that long. Waaaay toned down from AD&D invisibility.

 

[billd91]

But, I really, really hope that opinions like JRRNeikalots in the second post are the thing that gets tossed on the fire. I want my game to be as expansive as it can be, not shoehorned into someone's specific idea of what my game should look like.

But when do you want it is a reasonable question. Should I have to wait for gnomes so you can get dragonborn (or some other brand spanking new thing in 5e) in the initial core materials? That's one of the things I really detested about 4e - stuff that had been in every incarnation since 1e AD&D at least was bumped from the initial offering for new design. It was one of the decisions that rankled me. Then when even the initial offerings didn't live up to the scope of their analogs in earlier editions (and clearly weren't going to), I was ready to chuck it and never even pursued PH2 and later.

I recognize, and you need to too, that there is limited space available in the initial core. Something's got to be included and, because there's no way to include everything, something's got to be excluded ... initially. What's the justification for including dragonborn rather than some other PC race "X"? I would certainly expect humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings to be pretty secure in their iconic spots. Their long-term popularity is too broad and deep to ignore. Half-elves probably also fit that definition although probably not as strongly. Who's next to be included?

 

[Sunseeker]

I will say it and pray it out loud with the rest in here. Dragonborn who cannot gain a proper fly speed without multiclassing to get favored soul PP wings is one of the biggest, asinine blunders of 4e for me. I spent so many hours thinking up ways to get flight earlier, to match my mini which I made painstakingly with parts bowdlerized from other minis. I will post a pic here soon. It's pretty kewl.

Then, I ended up playing pathfinder and can do the same, but better and much earlier level, with either synthesist or a beastmorph alchemist (okay, only three hours of flight at level 6...good enough). I really don't see what the big deal is with a fly speed. A wizard in a decent edition of D&D rules will be able to fly at level 3 (or 2, in case Alter Self can grow you wings too) and do all sorts of sun stuff. The easy DM antidote? 5cp quivers in every army or group of soldiers. See a flying dragon man? Shoot first, ask questions later. I mean, this IS D&D. You'd probably get hunted down by other adventurers for your scales, let alone shot down by the city guard.

Seriously, there are easy peasy ways for DMs to counter a permanent fly speed. It's called a turkey shoot. Or whatever those brits do. You know, the birds fly up and 50 gun shots go off then the dogs run to bring the carcasses back. Unless you can fly and be invisible at the same time too, but in PF for example, invis doesn't last that long. Waaaay toned down from AD&D invisibility.

After this thread, I think I'm going to houserule in the flight feats from Races of Faerun. Basically we'll get this:

Inhuman Bloodline: Dragonborn, Tiefling, Deva(since they replaced aasamir), whatever other inhuman races could realistically have flight or some other neat racial thingy.
-some minor bonus based on whatever race you are.

Inhuman Flight: You gain wings, fly your speed, hover.
Prereq: Inhuman Bloodline


But yeah, I agree that fliers are NOT difficult to eliminate. Enemies with long range, flying enemies, checks for combat while flying, ect...

 

[Hussar]

But, Bill91, that's not what JRRNeikalot said. He wanted them removed from the game entirely.

If Dragonborn have to wait for a supplement, that's groovy. Not going to care too much either way. But, to just flatly state that something you don't like doesn't deserve to be in the game at all is all kinds of badwrongfun.

I'm certainly not going to weave it into the fabric of my existence if the powers at WOTC don't cater specifically to my tastes with their initial release. Good grief, how hard is it to add something to the game if you want it? If Dragonborn aren't in core, that's fine, the math will be transparent enough that I can add them in.

What I'm not going to do is spend the next three or four years pissing and moaning every opportunity I have that my particular needs aren't being serviced.

 

[billd91]

If Dragonborn have to wait for a supplement, that's groovy. Not going to care too much either way. But, to just flatly state that something you don't like doesn't deserve to be in the game at all is all kinds of badwrongfun.

One point I'm trying to highlight is you will be faced with a game that is "someone's specific idea of what [your] game should look like." At least for a while until the elements that make the game what you think it should look like come out.

 

[jbear]

I prefer to play humans.

But I'm happy for everyone to have access to their own preferences even if I don't like them as much personally. I can't really think of a race or option that I go so far as to be able to say I hate it.

I made my players hate gnomes. But that's because I used them to screw them over so many times, every time that they met a gnome they began to tremble! (with both fury and a dose of fear )

I'd suggest they have the first book released with both common and uncommon races and just order them in different sections.

Half-orcs ... they shouldn't be common. Dragon-born, not so common. Tieflings and devas, rare, etc. (or whatever)

That way everyone has their cake. Those that don't like those options at least have them defined as rare races, and those bored with halflings, elves and humans have immediate access to races they are interested in playing right from the initial release.

I remember the cry against the absence of bards, druids, barbarians, gnomes and half-orcs when 4e was released. They would be wise to learn from that.

 

[Mengu]

Once we know the racial structure, it'll take about 10 minutes to homebrew a 5e race. Missing races are the least of my concerns. Playing 4e, I had half-orcs in my game before PHB2, I had bug people in my game before Dark Sun.

 

[Incenjucar]

Once we know the racial structure, it'll take about 10 minutes to homebrew a 5e race. Missing races are the least of my concerns. Playing 4e, I had half-orcs in my game before PHB2, I had bug people in my game before Dark Sun.

Unfortunately, the character builder's hatred of homebrew makes this sort of thing much more difficult for some people than it should be.

 

[BobTheNob]

Well, after all of this I have to say that when dragonborn appeared I jumped for joy. I always loved Draconians from the original Dragonlance novels and having such a nicely supported close faximile was pure joy.

Interesting to know just how many people out their utterly detested them.

 

[Minigiant]

Once we know the racial structure, it'll take about 10 minutes to homebrew a 5e race. Missing races are the least of my concerns. Playing 4e, I had half-orcs in my game before PHB2, I had bug people in my game before Dark Sun.

The second issue is fixing characters after the official version pops up. My pity for the DM who lets a player play a race that comes out later. Usually I it is not bad.

The first issue is how the DM interprets the race and how much loud the player(s) will grumble.

That is why I hope there is a clear list of race creation rules, examples, or "Race as Characters" blocks.