D&D 5E What about warlocks and sorcerers?

Has Mike said anything on whether they're going to consolidate non-arcane classes as well?

We can only guess about what the benefit is supposed to be.

Well, there are certainly benefits to consolidating classes. For one, it reduces the amount of space you have to devote to redundant abilities. For another, it makes it easier to provide useful content for large swaths of PCs. Say you're releasing the Complete Necromancer's Handbook and you want to give arcane casters the ability to create weird flying heads with bat wings for ears and tentacles for hair; you only need to create a mage spell called "Create Vargouille," instead of a wizard spell and a sorceror spell and a warlock invocation and a psionic talent. It also simplifies balance to have a common framework to build on, and makes it easier for players to learn.

Against that, however, you have to put the chief drawback of consolidation: Loss of mechanical and conceptual diversity. For some folks this isn't an issue, but for a lot of us, the mechanics of a class have a big effect on how it feels to play that class, and if everything is using the same mechanics, playing a warlock feels much like playing a wizard. That contributes mightily to player burnout. Likewise, to whatever extent you feel the mechanics describe the game world, using the same mechanics implies a sameness within the game as well. This is why people are having such visceral reactions to the news that psions will be mages. The mage might provide a decent mechanical framework for the psion, but to put them under the same class heading implies that psions use the same kind of magic wizards do, which is completely counter to the concept of psionics in D&D.

I think some of the reasoning might be a desire to avoid class bloat, which was a significant problem in late 3E and 4E. But I don't really see this as a solution. Instead of class bloat, we just get subclass bloat.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Also interested if multiclassing is at the class or subclass level for permissible classes ( guess is subclass ok, tradition/way not ok)

How could it be possible at subclass level?

It will be possible to mix subclasses (i.e. traditions) when they are made of special abilities, but this is another thing. You just have e.g. 5 abilities from any subclass of X, so it will be possible to mix 3 from subclass A and 2 from subclass B, presumably you'll just have to respect the level requirements (but not even always).

OTOH you will not mix wizardry with sorcery or witchraft or psionics in that way. Maybe some special features can be swapped, but that's it. If these use different casting mechanics, you need multiclassing rules to mix them. But in that case, even if allowed to multiclass a Mage:Wizard into a Mage:somethingelse, you'll run into getting Scribe Scroll or Brew Potion two times, so multiclassing rules will need to work differently for this case.

Well, there are certainly benefits to consolidating classes. For one, it reduces the amount of space you have to devote to redundant abilities. For another, it makes it easier to provide useful content for large swaths of PCs. Say you're releasing the Complete Necromancer's Handbook and you want to give arcane casters the ability to create weird flying heads with bat wings for ears and tentacles for hair; you only need to create a mage spell called "Create Vargouille," instead of a wizard spell and a sorceror spell and a warlock invocation and a psionic talent.

I don't understand this...

There are 2 possibilities, either the alternative still uses spells (probably the case for Sorcerer) in which case you just create one spell and say it's both a Wizard and Sorcerer spell (i.e. same that happens all the times with Cleric/Druid spells et al), OR the alternative doesn't use spells but something else (Warlock?), in which case you need indeed to create both a spell and an invocation or whatever, but this happens anyway whether Warlock is a subclass or a class of its own. Ergo, I don't really see how consolidation into one class changes anything in respect to this...
 

There are 2 possibilities, either the alternative still uses spells (probably the case for Sorcerer) in which case you just create one spell and say it's both a Wizard and Sorcerer spell (i.e. same that happens all the times with Cleric/Druid spells et al), OR the alternative doesn't use spells but something else (Warlock?), in which case you need indeed to create both a spell and an invocation or whatever, but this happens anyway whether Warlock is a subclass or a class of its own. Ergo, I don't really see how consolidation into one class changes anything in respect to this...

Well, I was assuming that the move from "class" to "subclass" included a change of core mechanic; warlocks as their own class used special "invocation" powers, warlocks as a subclass of mage will use spells from the general list. Obviously, if Wizards is just going to say "Warlock has a Mage sticker on it now" and leave the class mechanics unchanged, it won't have much if any effect.
 


I can see one way to multiclass warlock/Wizard, but it requires multiclassing cleric.

.I'm think first take levels in Mage-Warlock aka Magelock, then take Cleric with Arcana/Mystra/Azoth domains/subclasses. Basically a Warlock/Wizard with a touch of healing
 

I can see one way to multiclass warlock/Wizard, but it requires multiclassing cleric.

.I'm think first take levels in Mage-Warlock aka Magelock, then take Cleric with Arcana/Mystra/Azoth domains/subclasses. Basically a Warlock/Wizard with a touch of healing

That's good; as long as it isn't convoluted
 

I'm thinking it sounds a lil' something like this:
Mage (Class Group)
-Wizard ("sub" class, Mage with the Wizardry "style" of making magic). "I study my spellbook and prepare/memorize my spells each day. I 'Fire n' Forget.' I am dependent on my Intelligence. My Spell slots per day increase by level. I am the master with access to all spells!"
--Illusionist. "I'm a Wizard steeped in/focused on the Illusion Tradition. I receive x, y, z additional abilities/skills/effects/restrictions."
--Necromancer (" " " the Necromancy Tradition " " ".)
--Evoker (" " " the Evocation Tradition " " ".)

-Sorcerer ("sub" class, Mage with the Sorcery style of making magic). "I gots magic in me bones! I can 'make magic happen' whenever I like! I have 'Spontaneous casting.' I am dependent on my Charisma. But I still only have these Spell slots per day that increase by level and can only pick from this list."
--Dragon Sorcerer. "I'm a Sorcerer with a Dragon Bloodline/Origin/whatever. My innate sorcerous magical special snowflakeyness comes from draconic ancestry/training/access to that particular type of energy. I receive x, y, z abilities/skills/effects/restrictions."
--Fairy Sorcerer. (" " " Faye Bloodline/Origin/whatever " " ")
--Elementalist Sorcerer. (" " " Elemental Bloodline/Origin/whatever " " ")

-Warlock ("sub" class, Mage with the Pact style of making magic). "I couldn't be bothered with the studying and didn't get lucky in the blood/ancestry dept. So I just went straight for the power. I was imbued with magic from my super-magic patron and now I owe them...well, that's not your business. All of my magic is 'At will casting.' I am dependent on my Constitution [or whatever]. I have this much power per day to use however I want and it increases with level like this. I can only choose 'spells'/effects from this other list."
--Devil Warlock. "I'm a Warlock who made a Pact with a Devil. My magical powers are derived from a powerful [but ultimately wicked/evil] patron. I receive x, y, z abilities/skills/effects/restrictions.
--Unseelie Warlock. (" " " made a Pact with a Dark Sidhe Lord " " ")
--Null Warlock. (" " " made a Pact with some Unknown Horror from beyond all space and time " " ")

Forcing Psionics in here, as I said in another thread, does not sit well with me because I have always considered them something different...a person with innate psychic powers and a person harnessing/weaving/shaping/conjuring/however you want to color it arcane energies are not the same kettle of fish to my eyes.

BUT, I see the organizational benefit to "shoehorning them in" under Mage to maintain the "Big Four from the top down" structure. So, that in mind...I suppose something like this...

-Psion ("sub" class, Mage with the Psionics style of making magic). "I can't tell you how or why, I just know that when I concentrate/focus my mind in certain ways I make stuff happen. Mybe its some blessing of the gods...or some curse...maybe my grandpappy fooled around with a mind flayer. I don't know. Stuff just...happens. All of my "magic" is 'At will casting.' I am dependent on my Intelligence and Charisma [?]. I have this much power per day to use however I want until I am just too mentally exhausted to do any more and it increases with level like this. Ichoose my powers/effects from this other list over here. Yeah, some if it looks like the spells those flashy wizardy types use. But I just have to think about it."
--Telepath. "I'm a Psion with the Telepathy Discipline. I receive x, y, z abilities/skills/effects/restrictions."
--Kineticist. (" " " with the Telekinesis Discipline " " ")
--Seer. (" " " with the Clairvoyance Discipline " " ")

[Artificer has no business being in a 1st PHB for 5e. It is a class introduced in/with Eberron and belongs in an Eberron setting book.]

So on the "Swords" side of the genre you'd have:
Warrior: Fighter
-Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger...with,then, various sub-specialists of those classes.

...on the "Magic" side
Mage: Wizard
-Sorcerer, Warlock, Psion...with the above various sub-specialists.

...on the "Skills" side of things you'd have
Rogue: Thief
-Assassin, Bard, some other roguey guy and their specific specialist options.

and in the "Sacred/Faith" corner...
Priest: Cleric
-Druid, Monk, something else with their specialties.

Or maybe Rogue and Priest just get the 3 each, with Warriors and Mages getting 4. So, 14 initial classes in total with a veritable BEVY of options for particular types of each...and thats before you even start looking at non-weapon Skills or any other detailing options.
 

With everything going to Mage, I'd really like a Swordmage class with more Whack less Spells / day and access to the same subclasses and sub-subclasses as Mage. That way we could turn the Warlock into Hexblade, the Psion into Psychic Warrior etc.
 

If warlock mage subclass doesn't use the vancian spellcasting but an alternate spellcasting that ressemble what we've seen earlier during playtest, and has curse + invocations obtained through dealings with an otherwordly entities, then it may not have to be a seperate class, nor is the sorcerer.

Shared mage class features might not be ideal, but they shouldn't be what make or break the class IMO. They might feel ackward (like Scribe Scrolls and Brew Potions for a psionic) but no deal breaker. And there's still time to shift things around and make mage core class features a little more neutral and emcompassing.
 

Shared mage class features might not be ideal, but they shouldn't be what make or break the class IMO. They might feel ackward (like Scribe Scrolls and Brew Potions for a psionic) but no deal breaker. And there's still time to shift things around and make mage core class features a little more neutral and emcompassing.

However they do, scribe scroll and brew potion are totoatlly out of place on anything that isn't an scholarly caster, something Sorcers, Psions and Warlocks aren't by default. Also there isn't much hope they'll change it, Mearls was very explicit when questioned in the matter, he is fine with them.
 

Remove ads

Top