Pathfinder 1E What are the advantages to Pathfinder -- for DMs?

[N'raac]

The standard point buy seems to be different. I'll illustrate an experience you may wish to watch out for. It's not necessarily a Pathfinder-specific thing, but could happen more easily in PF. At 8th-level, one of our players retired his rogue character and showed up with an elf necromancer. In an act of "no social skills" (very surprising for the player, who is an amazing DM, although not of D&D) he brought in a character without any sort of preview on our mailing list or wiki. It was a core-only elf necromancer. In 3.0, the standard point buy was 25 and a typical PC was expected to start with a high stat of only 15. There were no races at the start with any mental stat boosts. (I seriously doubt any group ever played a wizard with starting Int 15, they'd nerf Strength and Charisma and even Wisdom to start with a high stat. Playtesting is supposed to catch stuff like that!) Our DM has us playing the equivalent of 32 point buy (I forget what this is called in Pathfinder). The player's character started with Int 18, +2 for being an elf, and then of course +2 for levels and a +4 item, giving him an Int of 26 and having save DCs of 18 + spell level, plus had Dex and Con scores high enough to not suck. Said PC started curbstomping any and all encounters viewed. Said player is always paranoid of their PC getting hurt and so took all the best defensive spells (always either invisible or mirror image'd, the latter getting a buff it didn't need in PF)... and if they'd been more familiar with 3.x/PF rules and had taken Spell Focus once or twice, would have been even more overpowered.

I would say take 15 point buy (that's the equivalent of 25 point buy), but the high point buy made PC concepts like my druid wildshaped-focused PC vastly more viable than would normally be the case... certain types of cheese are just easier or at least less costly in PF than in 3.x.

Pathfinder goes 10/15/20/25

D&D went 15/22/25/28/32 (I think – can’t find this online), so more options.

Pathfinder 20 is comparable to D&D 28 (both levels our group played at). You could put 4 stats at 14 (cost of 5 each in Pathfinder, 6 in D&D) and 2 at 10 (cost nil in PF and 2 each in D&D). Moving out to higher stats or lower stats varies the two. There was no point buy for a 7 in D&D, while PF gives you 2 extra points (over and above the 2 for dropping to an 8). However, the incremental cost for increasing a stat kicks in earlier in PF (at even numbers, rather than the next odd number), so an 18 in PF costs 17 versus 16 in D&D, even considering the D&D character started at 8 and PF at 10 (the PF cost of selecting an 18 rather than an 8 is really 19).

So what did the Necro take? Starting INT of 18 costs 17 points. Assuming 25 point buy, that leaves 8 points. I’m guessing he nerfed STR and CHA down to, say, 8 and 7 (spell books are heavy…) so that gives him another 6 points, so 14. He can pump 5 each into CON and DEX, so 14’s (certainly doesn’t suck) and That leaves 4 to have, say, a 12 WIS and a 10 STR (or 8 CHA).
So let’s call his stats S8 D14 C14 I18 W12 Ch8 25 points (8 CHA because D&D would not allow for a 7, so tough to compare)
Same array in D&D costs 0 + 6 + 6 + 16 + 4 + 0 = 32, so equivalent point buy.

So I don’t think this is significantly less costly in Pathfinder. The only difference in Pathinder is the +2 INT for being an elf. That 1 point bonus to DC is the only difference between 3.5 and Pathfinder, so I suggest a character equally powerful could be created under either system, with Pathfinder having a small advantage due to the elf’s +2 (but a human, half elf or half orc could also assign their +2 bonus to INT). The big difference is that you can get bonuses to a mental stat, not just to a physical stat, from race in Pathfinder.

The real issue is a combination of high point build and min/max attributes, not a change between the systems.

 

[TwoSix]

The player's character started with Int 18, +2 for being an elf, and then of course +2 for levels and a +4 item, giving him an Int of 26 and having save DCs of 18 + spell level, plus had Dex and Con scores high enough to not suck. Said PC started curbstomping any and all encounters viewed. Said player is always paranoid of their PC getting hurt and so took all the best defensive spells (always either invisible or mirror image'd, the latter getting a buff it didn't need in PF)... and if they'd been more familiar with 3.x/PF rules and had taken Spell Focus once or twice, would have been even more overpowered.

To be fair, a +4 Int item is a significant investment for an 8th level character, it's almost half their wealth by level. Although even a 22 Int wizard is going to curbstomp a lot of encounters, so it really doesn't matter that much.

 

[Storminator]

It's basically going to be a bunch more work, tho there are some workarounds already mentioned.

So you should accept that and do what the 3.x games do well - wide open character customization, pretty easy house rules, and ridiculous gonzo magic power. Make up some magic items your players really want. Come up with some crazy new feats and spells. Don't worry about following the rules for monsters and NPCs - it's not worth the effort (and it's a lot of effort), just make up things that are interesting. Use the game's lack of balance.

PS

 

[amethal]

One of the pitfalls of Pathfinder is that they have changed a lot of spells in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. I recommend putting the onus on the players to read what the spells actually do, as opposed to what they think they do from 3.5, and ask them to point it out if and when your NPC spellcasters inadvertently break the rules. (Or alternatively, don't worry about it, and just use the 3.5 versions you are familiar with.)

I'd also suggest familiarising yourself with the Vital Strike chain of feats, as lots of monsters have them.

I can't think of any benefits to DMing Pathfinder apart from the fact the rules are readily available online.

 

[gamerprinter]

Thanks. I'm still kinda amazed Paizo makes all their content available like that.


I'm shooting for open-world, exploring both wilderness and decaying urban fantasy mega-city environments.


I think the only way we'll play E6 is if the campaign tanks. The player's I've got like higher-powered stuff. Unfortunately for me, the group's previous DM --who used to post a lot around here as shilsen-- was very good at that sort of thing. He set a high bar.

We actually started using an AP, part 1 of Skull and Shackles. It wasn't a good fit, and, at for now, I'm going to be writing the adventures myself. Can anyone recommend some good non-AP, non-Paizo modules? I hate to say it, but I just don't like the way Paizo adventures are written/organized. They seem about 10 times more wordy as necessary.

Rite Publishing has a PFRPG trilogy of adventures based in Kaidan setting of Japanese horror for characters 5-8th level that might be worth checking out, called Curse of the Golden Spear - all the adventures have been 5 star rated by the reviewers. Some of the races and archetypes of Kaidan are included on d20pfsrd.com

Plus there's a free one-shot, called Frozen Wind for Kaidan as well - if you want to check it out for no cost to you!

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

To be fair, a +4 Int item is a significant investment for an 8th level character, it's almost half their wealth by level. Although even a 22 Int wizard is going to curbstomp a lot of encounters, so it really doesn't matter that much.

A wizard's key stat gives them more than pretty much any other PC's, except maybe fighters. (In fact, the PC had bought a +6 item, which they had made themselves for half price, and I was stunned to find you could make a +6 stat item at only 8th-level. This isn't even a Pathfinder rule either, having been there since at least 3.5. The DM told him he could only have a +4 item, and not at half price because the half-price rules were only for use after the character started. This, plus a bunch of other issues, could have been avoided if the player had let the DM see their character sheet before the session.)

When I discussed this on the Paizo boards, I made the mistake of mentioning the +6 item. People ignored everything else and just complained about the broken magic item rules. Apparently there's constant flamewars there over that one issue.

 

[TwoSix]

A wizard's key stat gives them more than pretty much any other PC's, except maybe fighters. (In fact, the PC had bought a +6 item, which they had made themselves for half price, and I was stunned to find you could make a +6 stat item at only 8th-level. This isn't even a Pathfinder rule either, having been there since at least 3.5. The DM told him he could only have a +4 item, and not at half price because the half-price rules were only for use after the character started. This, plus a bunch of other issues, could have been avoided if the player had let the DM see their character sheet before the session.)

When I discussed this on the Paizo boards, I made the mistake of mentioning the +6 item. People ignored everything else and just complained about the broken magic item rules. Apparently there's constant flamewars there over that one issue.

Oh, I agree that any caster should focus on buffing their save stat. +6 item is 36K, so 18K if you make your own...yea, that is actually doable. Fortunately, my 11th level party isn't that proactive.

 

[Cybit]

I just disallow any and all magic item crafting from the get go, and make my players come up with reasons as to why they should be able to do it; let's me balance on an as needed basis.

 

[Arkhandus]

In my experience (been running my Weird Frontiers campaign of Pathfinder for over a year, and I've been running the Jade Regent Adventure Path for several months now), Pathfinder isn't ANY easier to run than 3.x D&D. The few little things it improves or provides are compensated for with OTHER problems/complications for the DM to deal with or keep track of all the time. For instance, instead of just worrying about how to suitably challenge the party's Wizard or Psion or Druid, I have to deal with the fact that EVERY PC is destroying any monster or NPC I throw at them in 1 or 2 rounds of massive attacks, unless I use a critter or NPC that is equal or superior to them in power and optimized to reliably hit them......in which case it quickly destroys each PC it faces and risks a TPK. Anything already in the Pathfinder rules that is capable of either surviving their absurd damage output and accuracy for a round or more is ALSO capable of laying waste to the PCs (or easily mind-controlling them to make them destroy each other). Everything in PF tends to be either a mook that dies quickly without doing anything to challenge the party or threaten them, or it plays out as a nigh-unstoppable juggernaut or engine of destruction.

The PCs can dish out hundreds of damage per round, yet they drop to the first monster or NPC with enough BAB/Str/Dex/whatever to actually hit them as reliably as they hit their foes, because the PCs have less HP than the amount of damage they can personally, individually inflict in one round (or their HP is only barely higher than their typical damage output per round). There's little to be found that is tough enough to survive a few rounds but weak enough not to kill a PC every round or two. I've tried using different numbers of monsters/NPCs of different CRs relative to the party's level, and it's just too broken. I have to fudge or make the monsters perform tactical blunders to avoid a TPK, or I have to just accept the fact that the vast majority of encounters will be utterly boring and identical as the PCs slaughter everything before it can do anything interesting or present any kind of challenge or tactical dilemma for the PCs.

That aside, there's way too much stuff to keep track of and check during play or between sessions of Pathfinder, and the system has really odd ways of handling treasure, XP, encounter-building, etc. Really nonsensical in several cases, I've found in practice. It's more work than running 3.0 or 3.5 D&D, and I seem to get less benefit from taking the time to actually prepare NPCs or advanced monsters (more HD, class levels, templates, or whatever) to try and challenge the PCs, which often doesn't even provide enough of a challenge anyway (or quickly turns into a possible TPK, conversely).

Running a Paizo adventure path hasn't helped. A few of the critters in those modules can easily kill 1 or 2 PCs in a round or two, and only potentially avoid doing so (in some cases) due to unusual cowardice or idiocy written into the module for their behavior. And yet still, in other parts, their plans or behavior as-written lead to near-TPKs (IIRC there were 1 or 2 PCs left standing in the final fight with Kikonu by the point he finally dropped, and only because those 1 or 2 PCs were the cleric and paladin, who had done some healing, and only because it was a 6-PC group instead of the typical 4-5 PCs; I had to make Kikonu and minions avoid finishing any fallen PCs during the fight, else there would have only been 1 or 2 returning from the adventure). Most of the encounters are cakewalks with little risk to any PC, interspersed with the occasional fatal or near-fatal encounter with a dangerous critter or NPC (who may still die quickly, but may very well take one or more PCs with them).

 

[Mallus]

Thanks for the replies so far - I'll respond more when I'm posting from something better than my phone (my iPad can't find the stupid hotel wifi!!).