What are the biggest rules debates?

[glass]

But in 3E (following molonel), by RAW, you did threaten with an unarmed strike. It wasn't until 3.5 that the "if you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten" got into the core rules (which btw creates the contradiction with Table 8-4's note about using unarmed attack forms for AOOs).

Are you sure about that. I don't have my 3.0 books about to check, but I'd be very surprised if that was the case.


glass.

 

[Storm Raven]

Are you sure about that. I don't have my 3.0 books about to check, but I'd be very surprise if that was the case.

Luckily, we don't need the 3.0 books, as we can use the 3.0 SRD (still available online). It says this about threatened areas:

Threatened Area
A character threatens the area into which it can make a melee attack, even when it is not a character's action. An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened area may provoke an attack of opportunity from a character. A small or medium sized character normally has a 5-foot threat radius. "Reach weapons" and "natural reach" can change the threatened area.

Nowhere in the 3.0 rules does it say you do not threaten while making an unarmed strike. Contrast this with the 3.5 SRD text on threatened areas:

Threatened Squares
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.

 

[dcollins]

Are you sure about that.

Yes.

 

[molonel]

Huh? What you just quoted from the 3E SRD says exactly what Patryn said it does...?

No, it doesn't. This leg of the discussion started with whether or not you can flank with a missile weapon. He quoted the 3.0 SRD saying that you didn't have to threaten someone in order to flank. Read the quotes. You must be in melee. You cannot use a missile weapon to gain flanking bonuses. Neither can the person who helps you flank. The ally aiding you must threaten, and you must be able to attack the creature you are flanking. The underlying assumption is that you, too, must threaten the creature. How else will you attack it in melee?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Nowhere in the 3.0 rules does it say you do not threaten while making an unarmed strike.

We know that an unarmed attack only provoked an AoO from an armed opponent. An unarmed opponent could note take an AoO when attacked by another unarmed creature.

Could an unarmed opponent, though, make an AoO for every other provocation? AoOs for movement, spellcasting, grapples, disarms, potion-drinking, crossbow-loading, etc?

The 3E Main FAQ had this to say about using grapples or disarms (for whatever that's worth):
Most spellcasters won’t be holding a weapon, and foes holding ranged weapons don’t threaten you, so you don’t have to worry about triggering an attack of opportunity when using either tactic.

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

Which is contradicted by the core rules Table 8-4 note saying specifically that you can make an AOO when unarmed, by such means as disarm, grapple, and trip (3.0 PHB p. 128).

 

[Scion]

A recent rules debate I have seen is about whether or not a warmage can benefit from the rainbow servant prc.

Not to try to distract from the debate currently in process of course

 

[Hypersmurf]

Which is contradicted by the core rules Table 8-8 note saying specifically that you can make an AOO when unarmed, by such means as disarm, grapple, and trip (3.0 PHB p. 128).

It says that they replace a melee attack, and as such can be used in an attack action, full attack action, charge, or AoO.

But an AoO is only provoked if an action is taken in a threatened area.

Saying grapple can be used on an AoO isn't a statement one way or another that someone threatens unarmed. If you threaten, and an AoO is thereby provoked, that AoO can be a grapple.

The footnote is not evidence that an unarmed creature threatened. (Neither, of course, is it evidence that he didn't.)

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

I agree that an AOO is only provoked if an action is taken in a threatened area. The note establishes that you can make an AOO via grappling. Therefore, you must threaten with a grapple (unarmed).

 

[Hypersmurf]

I disagree. How can you make an AOO with a grapple if you do not threaten unarmed?

Be armed.

As a simple example, take the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. You're now considered armed.

For a more controversial example, hold a dagger.

Therefore, you must threaten with a grapple (unarmed).

I disagree. I can use an unarmed strike for an AoO... but only if the AoO is provoked. It's not provoked if I don't threaten. But if I do, the option is available.

Same with a grapple.

-Hyp.