D&D 5E What are the most UNDER/OVER CRed Monsters in the Monster Manual?

[Zmajdusa]

And thus one of the problems with the encounter system, multiple monsters that are similar to the Umberhulk in a dungeon setting are brutal at all levels of play. There really should be extra hp awarded for things like that. Umberhulks are also brutal because their confusion ability targets charisma, a dump stat for 7 of the classes in the core book most of the time.

 

[CapnZapp]

And thus one of the problems with the encounter system, multiple monsters that are similar to the Umberhulk in a dungeon setting are brutal at all levels of play. There really should be extra hp awarded for things like that. Umberhulks are also brutal because their confusion ability targets charisma, a dump stat for 7 of the classes in the core book most of the time.

I fondly remember a fight I set up:

One (smallish) fomorian riding a umber hulk, with six beefed-up grimlocks as foot soldiers.

They nearly locked down the entire (level elevenish?) party and scared the out of the players.

The party turned the tables and slaughtered all enemies soon enough, but we all agreed it was a memorable and good encounter [emoji4]

It was also a mindrape of the official encounter guidelines, like a 10 times deadly encounter... Sigh, those guidelines are SO useless... [emoji20]

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[robus]

I'd say any monster that you have to make a save against every round. The game I was in last weekend had an encounter with 3 umberhulks, needless to say every martial character started out the fight confused

I agree that it makes no sense to allow re-attempting the saves on each turn. The chance of beating it goes up each roll. Much more dramatic (and realistic) for the fail to last the entire encounter IMHO. Not thinking of breaking a grapple, but things like being frightened. It should be treated like losing HP and require some action by another member of the party to overcome, give the players more problems to deal with!

 

[Croesus]

The biggest flaw is that all these very high level monsters have their movement specified as an ACTION rather than a bonus action.

Agreed. What I find interesting is that the designers did address this with the Nycaloth. Its teleport ability is an action, but the multiattack entry effectively allows them to drop one attack for teleport. Makes a ton of difference in play.

If I was running a balor or similarly powerful demon, I would do the same for them - allow them to substitute teleport for one of the attacks they gain via multiattack.

Multiattack. The nycaloth makes two melee attacks, or it makes one melee attack and teleports before or after the attack.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Yes, well, I hope we can agree no designer hands out abilities with the purpose to help the monster flee. No player likes that.

No, teleport (or misty step) is a tactical movement enabler, and at that level, it's definitely needed.

Problem is, using up your action on it is incredibly weak-sauce.

The natural thing, that really puts the scare in the players, is for it to BOTH step/teleport and still cause a shitload of damage.

Step close to the party caster, make full attacks.

Next round, make full attacks, then teleport away.

Third round, Port in somewhere completely different and do something there.

NOW we're talking CR 19!! [emoji4]

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I consider the limited teleport ability to be a balancer since the Dimensional Anchor spell has been completely removed from the game.

Otherwise no Balor will ever die, to me chaotic evil can be considered super evil sadistic coward alignment. A Balor that can teleport as a bonus action, in my opinion, will absolutely flee the round you reduce him to half health. All demons that have to work so hard to get into the Prime Material should flee at half if they can. So unless your party can without warning Nova a demon for half it's total health in one round, don't expect to kill him if he can teleport as a bonus.

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[CapnZapp]

Agreed. What I find interesting is that the designers did address this with the Nycaloth. Its teleport ability is an action, but the multiattack entry effectively allows them to drop one attack for teleport. Makes a ton of difference in play.

If I was running a balor or similarly powerful demon, I would do the same for them - allow them to substitute teleport for one of the attacks they gain via multiattack.

Multiattack. The nycaloth makes two melee attacks, or it makes one melee attack and teleports before or after the attack.

Sure, but what we REALLY need is a revised Monster Manual that does this not just for you and me, but for everybody.

Or errata.

Or even an optional supplement for only those who want it.

But the point is that nothing truly changes by us making haphazardous fixes in random forum threads...

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[CapnZapp]

I consider the limited teleport ability to be a balancer since the Dimensional Anchor spell has been completely removed from the game.

Otherwise no Balor will ever die, to me chaotic evil can be considered super evil sadistic coward alignment. A Balor that can teleport as a bonus action, in my opinion, will absolutely flee the round you reduce him to half health. All demons that have to work so hard to get into the Prime Material should flee at half if they can. So unless your party can without warning Nova a demon for half it's total health in one round, don't expect to kill him if he can teleport as a bonus.

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You're missing the point.

The point is: a full action Teleport is worthless.

How we solve this without causing another headache is another question. The point here is that the current Balor ability is unacceptably softball.

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[CapnZapp]

Back to the original question:

Assassin Vines.

I randomly rolled up 3 Vines for my level 6 party to walk into (in the jungles of Chult).

A walk in the park, right? They're only CR 3. Wrong.

They're undetectable and thus automatically gains surprise. Then two of them won initiative.

The lead Paladin thus faced three DC 13 grapple/entanglements, about 4d6 blunt damage, and 12d6 poison damage...

...all before being allowed a single action!

So if you want to wipe your level 3 party, I recommend an Assassin Vine or two. With any luck this "balanced" encounter will kill several characters before they even know what hit them!

(PS. Since my party was twice the CR in level, they survived. The Druid healed the Paladin and with luck she did not die, instead misty step escaping the grapples to safety.)

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[Zmajdusa]

There is an easier answer, just use the teleporting spells that take a bonus action to use, they don't have Dimension Door range and most of them require you to see where you are going.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

You're missing the point.

The point is: a full action Teleport is worthless.

How we solve this without causing another headache is another question. The point here is that the current Balor ability is unacceptably softball.

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Can you grapple someone and teleport them and you?

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