D&D 5E What are the roles of paladin spells?

[Ridley's Cohort]

I am not too convinced on the paladin smite spells. Class ability smite seems better, always.

At first I was annoyed by this, but after pondering the issue, I would say this is playing to the 5e philosophy that you should not always be required to think to hard to be competent. Realistically, assuming a balanced party, you will burn almost all your spell slots on Smite, except for the occasional Find Steed.

The very tactically skilled will figure out cast a spell in the previous round, not lose Concentration, and make a big Smite attack in the following round. Whether bothering to try this makes a lot of sense depends on the tactical situation.

There is really nothing wrong with burning slots the pedestrian way.

 

[sithramir]

Put some plate mail on that guy and we've got a paladin!

 

[The Human Target]

Pukunui, I think the problem you are having with your spells is that you are looking at them as if they are supposed to play a large role in the game.

Smite spells are pretty much meant to be niche situations. Its not about doing damage, its about inflicting status conditions on enemies while attacking. Have someone that keeps vanishing on you? Use a smite that lights them up.

I think you are looking at Compel Duel wrong. Its not about getting the big solo into a one-on-one fight. Its about getting a single big tough guy leading an army to focus on you while your party mops up the rest of the crowd. Think death knight leading an army of undead. Or the giant that's part of an orc invasion. Its really useful also if you're dealing with rogue-like enemies with high mobility moving around to squish your casters. If your GM isn't doing situations like that, then that's another matter.

I find that Paladin spells are meant to fill in the niche situations instead of being the main execution. Yes, aura spells are great for buffing, but that's just one or two spells out of your whole list. You should be looking to your class abilities instead of spell list.

If that's the case, its weird to even give them spells.

Its a lot of space for something that isn't very useful.

 

[pukunui]

I think you are looking at Compel Duel wrong. Its not about getting the big solo into a one-on-one fight. Its about getting a single big tough guy leading an army to focus on you while your party mops up the rest of the crowd. Think death knight leading an army of undead. Or the giant that's part of an orc invasion. Its really useful also if you're dealing with rogue-like enemies with high mobility moving around to squish your casters. If your GM isn't doing situations like that, then that's another matter.

Yes, I know. The problem is that we're not really facing many large groups. It's mostly big guys with maybe a few minions. And of course everyone always wants to take out the big guy first.

I find that Paladin spells are meant to fill in the niche situations instead of being the main execution. Yes, aura spells are great for buffing, but that's just one or two spells out of your whole list. You should be looking to your class abilities instead of spell list.

That's fine. I guess maybe I'm just not getting enough niche situations in Age of Worms. Either that or, when the niche situations come up, someone else jumps in first.

I'll be honest and say that the spells were not the main draw for me. However, this thread was about the paladin spells, so I thought I'd chime in with my own experiences, and somehow it came across as a bigger deal than I'd meant it to be.

 

[Mephista]

If that's the case, its weird to even give them spells.

Its a lot of space for something that isn't very useful.

It comes down to 1) Tradition and 2) allowing variation on paladin core abilities without bulky feats or swapping in/out things. Want a new kind of pally aura, but don't want an entire subclass? A spell. A neat idea for using smites a certain way? The compel duel thing is a reference back to the 4e defender mark as well.

The spells really aren't useless. I find them to actually be useful in a variety of situations - you pick the right tools for the right jobs. However, a lot of it depends on party composition, and GM style.

Yes, I know. The problem is that we're not really facing many large groups. It's mostly big guys with maybe a few minions. And of course everyone always wants to take out the big guy first.

Ask for your GM to start throwing some situations that would benefit you, then. Be attacked by two giants instead of just one.

That's fine. I guess maybe I'm just not getting enough niche situations in Age of Worms. Either that or, when the niche situations come up, someone else jumps in first.


I'll be honest and say that the spells were not the main draw for me. However, this thread was about the paladin spells, so I thought I'd chime in with my own experiences, and somehow it came across as a bigger deal than I'd meant it to be.

Maybe not. The thing is that your party sounds like they're all very good at doing the spellcasting thing, so that angle is covered in your group. Its so much overlap. Niche protection within a party is actually really important. So, you're better off with acting warrior-like than not.

 

[The Human Target]

I don't think the spells are useless in and of themselves, but the class design overall is very clunky (even though the paladin is very powerful.)

 

[CapnZapp]

I think you are looking at Compel Duel wrong. Its not about getting the big solo into a one-on-one fight. Its about getting a single big tough guy leading an army to focus on you while your party mops up the rest of the crowd. Think death knight leading an army of undead. Or the giant that's part of an orc invasion. Its really useful also if you're dealing with rogue-like enemies with high mobility moving around to squish your casters. If your GM isn't doing situations like that, then that's another matter.

Compelled Duel suffers from two flaws I fear are each severe but in combination outright devastating.

First, it requires Concentration, so you can't cast another spell with Concentration. Those other spells are almost always better - you have very good Concentration spells. The opportunity cost is simply too high.

Second, it requires Concentration, which means damage means you risk losing your spell. And you've just cast a spell whose sole purpose is to have a powerful foe attack you! That's just bad engineering.

If the spell only barred you from casting other Concentration spells, but couldn't be lost simply by taking damage, it wouldn't be so bad.

Or if you still risk losing the spell from taking damage, but you could combine it with one of your excellent Concentration spells, it would also not be so bad.

Both since the two (very different) aspects of Concentration aren't separable (at least not until a future rules expansion makes that possible), the verdict of Compelled Duel can only be: "avoid".

 

[Maxperson]

The cleric and wizard can both cast banishment, so there's not much point in me prepping that spell. The cleric is a tempest cleric, so she even gets destructive wave (and before my paladin does).

I've never understood this. The cleric and wizard have tons of other things they can memorize, so why would they be memorizing those two spells? The party would be more versatile and stronger if they memorized other spells and left those two to you.

 

[Maxperson]

If that's the case, its weird to even give them spells.

Its a lot of space for something that isn't very useful.

Not really. Paladin spells aren't spells that can can sometimes be useful as smite, as you two are viewing them. They are smites that can sometimes be useful as spells. That gives them the occasional extra boost when used as spells.

 

[costermonger]

Not really. Paladin spells aren't spells that can can sometimes be useful as smite, as you two are viewing them. They are smites that can sometimes be useful as spells. That gives them the occasional extra boost when used as spells.

Exactly. One of my players ran a vengeance paladin a while ago. he smited almost all the time. occasional heal when the party didn't have a cleric for a couple of levels. only time i remember any other spell being used was branding smite against an invisible enemy.