D&D 5E What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

[Micah Sweet]

And that's absolutely fine. Some people like films, some like TV miniseries, and some like TV shows with multiple series with two dozen episodes per series - whether classic TV or even soap operas. Storygames are going for the film equivalent.

That makes sense. I always preferred TV to film.

 

[Maxperson]

Even epic fantasy doesn't always do "level up" type narratives. Beowulf? He begins being able to do things like swim for multiple days straight in armor. The oldest epic we have, the Epic of Gilgamesh? The man is literally 2/3 god from birth, and starts out a king so overwhelmingly powerful, the gods themselves must craft an opponent for him to make him change his ways. Herakles, Perseus, Theseus, Aeneas? Almost all of them start as royalty or nobility of some kind, most of them are children or grandchildren of gods, and several of them can perform feats of strength from their youth that even well-trained soldiers can't match. Even Odysseus, the Greek hero most closely linked to trickery and cunning rather than strength, is stronger than most men, the grandson of Hermes, and king of Ithaca.

There are no instances there of heroes that weren't at one point 0s(0 level). Even Herakles who strangled a snake as a baby wasn't a hero at that point. It was a normal snake, and while it presaged the hero he would become, he wasn't that hero yet. Same with the rest. Beowulf didn't come out of his mother in armor and go swimming for days.

The authors of those stories simply started the narrative from after the point where they became heroes. The zero to hero happened off screen like happened with both Conan and Elric.

 

[Cadence]

There are no instances there of heroes that weren't at one point 0s(0 level). Even Herakles who strangled a snake as a baby wasn't a hero at that point. It was a normal snake, and while it presaged the hero he would become, he wasn't that hero yet.

Having seen the adults in the neighborhood FB group freak out when anything that's one of the half dozen species that either vaguely looks like a copperhead or is unrecognizable... a baby strangling a snake seems pretty heroic!

 

[EzekielRaiden]

There are no instances there of heroes that weren't at one point 0s(0 level). Even Herakles who strangled a snake as a baby wasn't a hero at that point. It was a normal snake, and while it presaged the hero he would become, he wasn't that hero yet. Same with the rest. Beowulf didn't come out of his mother in armor and go swimming for days.

The authors of those stories simply started the narrative from after the point where they became heroes. The zero to hero happened off screen like happened with both Conan and Elric.

So, just to be absolutely clear: You are saying that a story can be a zero to hero story so long as the protagonist is born at some point in their life. As long as that is true of the character, their story qualifies for "zero to hero."

 

[Maxperson]

Having seen the adults in the neighborhood FB group freak out when anything that's one of the half dozen species that either vaguely looks like a copperhead or is unrecognizable... a baby strangling a snake seems pretty heroic!

Hah! When I was around 4 I was taken to a park with a duck pond. That pond also had a number of geese, one of which was a mean cuss who would bite of people got too close. Anyway, not knowing any better I had wandered close to it and it came towards me, at which time also not knowing any better I grabbed it by the neck coincidentally at a spot where it couldn't bite me and promptly dragged it by the neck back to my dad to ask if I could keep it. When I was told no I let it go and it ran away. That sucker never came near me ever again.

 

[Cadence]

Hah! When I was around 4 I was taken to a park with a duck pond. That pond also had a number of geese, one of which was a mean cuss who would bite of people got too close. Anyway, not knowing any better I had wandered close to it and it came towards me, at which time also not knowing any better I grabbed it by the neck coincidentally at a spot where it couldn't bite me and promptly dragged it by the neck back to my dad to ask if I could keep it. When I was told no I let it go and it ran away. That sucker never came near me ever again.

So, if I parse this correctly, you yourself are an example of skipping zero!!

 

[Maxperson]

So, just to be absolutely clear: You are saying that a story can be a zero to hero story so long as the protagonist is born at some point in their life. As long as that is true of the character, their story qualifies for "zero to hero."

No. Not the story. The hero. The story starts at a point in the life of the hero after he became a hero. The hero, though, didn't start life as a hero. He was at some point a zero who earned his way to hero status off screen, as I said in post #2103. I then pointed out in that post that D&D just starts with the 0 on screen unless the group opts to start at higher level.

It's not something super controversial. There are no stories that I am aware of where someone was from birth a hero, though there are a few(or more than a few) anime shows where it's pretty close.

 

[Maxperson]

So, if I parse this correctly, you yourself are an example of skipping zero!!

Not quite! I just started at 4. 0-4 was me, um, earning my way.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

No. Not the story. The hero. The story starts at a point in the life of the hero after he became a hero. The hero, though, didn't start life as a hero. He was at some point a zero who earned his way to hero status off screen, as I said in post #2103. I then pointed out in that post that D&D just starts with the 0 on screen unless the group opts to start at higher level.

It's not something super controversial. There are no stories that I am aware of where someone was from birth a hero, though there are a few(or more than a few) anime shows where it's pretty close.

I...have no idea what that even means. How do you have a zero to hero character without having a zero to hero story? The fact that they were once a zero and are now a hero literally is a story. It's not spelled out, but it's a story, with a beginning (zero) and an end (hero).

 

[Maxperson]

I...have no idea what that even means. How do you have a zero to hero character without having a zero to hero story? The fact that they were once a zero and are now a hero literally is a story. It's not spelled out, but it's a story, with a beginning (zero) and an end (hero).

These heroes had to be born, right? They didn't just pop into being at the ripe old age of hero and begin doing stuff. Their story starts then, but they must had had at least some time not being heroes to get to the point where the story starts.

Try it like this. Next time you start a D&D game at a level where the PCs are heroes, see if anyone think that their PC had never been born and just spontaneously came into being at that point. I'm going to guess you'll get answers of no. They will understand that even though they are starting the game as heroes, at some point their characters weren't heroes and progressed to their current state of being off screen.