D&D 5E What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

That's why people are resistant. You're basically saying "Screw Tolkien, it's only Game of Thrones for me!", whether you're thinking that way or not, that's what you're de facto advocating.

It's even worse than this. Many of the "keep it grounded" folks want only martial stuff to be grounded Game of Thrones but seem fine with tons of Dr. Strange wizards running around.

To me this is the real disconnect. It's very genre mixing that doesn't happen often in fiction because it's not enjoyable.

If you are going to have comic book/superhero magic then you should put in comic book/super hero martials in a team based game (or need meta bennies).

If you want more grounded martials than look to much more limited magic users and you have something that also works.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It was also pretty clear about what it was doing and how the game changed. Modern D&D is not.

Absolutely agree - modern D&D is not, and I would suggest that's because of a general change in the sensibilities of the majority of players, and in the sort of fiction and media they consume (that goes a lot further back than the MCU, note). In the BECMI era you needed to be a little more clear, because a lot of people were coming at D&D from genre fiction which was much more realist or superficially realist at least. There was more of a desire for explanations of why people were superhuman or different, and aside from LeGuin and Tolkien, who weren't the dominant source for D&D, most of it wasn't mythic/legendary-type stuff.

But that gradually changed and since the '00s really people are just much more willing to accept characters doing stuff that's beyond the norm without much of an explanation. C.f. the success, for example, of the truly ludicrous Fast & Furious series. No-one is suggesting that anyone there has supernatural powers, but... they're doing incredible, obviously impossible things and the audience isn't really there to question that.

Nor are they playing D&D to question that. They'd be playing DCC if they wanted to question that.

It's even worse than this. Many of the "keep it grounded" folks want only martial stuff to be grounded Game of Thrones but seem fine with tons of Dr. Strange wizards running around.

I don't know if these two played RPGs (Mitchell seems like he has) but this is an amazing summary of the sort of situation they seem to want, yeah:

 

[Cadence]

It's even worse than this. Many of the "keep it grounded" folks want only martial stuff to be grounded Game of Thrones but seem fine with tons of Dr. Strange wizards running around.

To me this is the real disconnect. It's very genre mixing that doesn't happen often in fiction because it's not enjoyable.

If you are going to have comic book/superhero magic then you should put in comic book/super hero martials in a team based game (or need meta bennies).

If you want more grounded martials than look to much more limited magic users and you have something that also works.

I would certainly buy an e8 (10?) version of 5e with the current levels 3 on stretched out up to 20 to slow down the advancement where the magic in particular caps out earlier.

 

[Parmandur]

It's even worse than this. Many of the "keep it grounded" folks want only martial stuff to be grounded Game of Thrones but seem fine with tons of Dr. Strange wizards running around.

To me this is the real disconnect. It's very genre mixing that doesn't happen often in fiction because it's not enjoyable.

If you are going to have comic book/superhero magic then you should put in comic book/super hero martials in a team based game (or need meta bennies).

If you want more grounded martials than look to much more limited magic users and you have something that also works.

Yeah, what 5E has now, with 80's Action Star martials, works fine in practice. Certainly.no need to tone them down for grittiness.

 

[Minigiant]

If you want more grounded martials than look to much more limited magic users and you have something that also works.

You don't have to nerf magic to have grounded martials to work with them. You just have to be honest and open.

I remember during the MMORPG boom there were superhero MMOs. And one thing they did was have origin stories as the basis of your heroes power.

1. You had Magic
2. You had Advanced Tech
3. You had Magical Gear
4. You were involved with a Scientific Accident
5. You were an alien or mutant
6. Your training some thing to a superhuman level or learned a trick that allows for superhuman feats

The "issue" that 5e and some fantasy fans want a game with the possibility of many levels without and an allowing some PC to choose a superhero origin but not be beholden to do so for every character.

It's why D&D villains tend to be wizards. A fighter villian would likely have a ton of magical gear, forcing that gear into your campaign and into the payer's hands when killed. And any special training or accident could be likely replicated without a villain death. So fighty and sneaky villains and challenges tended to be special, one of a kind, unique monsters. Because 5e doesn't want to predispose elements into your game at all lorewise and a portion of the community don't want to feel compelled to deal with mechanic establishing lore.

It's the "I don't know. We can go eat whatever" attitude of lore making.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Absolutely agree - modern D&D is not, and I would suggest that's because of a general change in the sensibilities of the majority of players, and in the sort of fiction and media they consume (that goes a lot further back than the MCU, note). In the BECMI era you needed to be a little more clear, because a lot of people were coming at D&D from genre fiction which was much more realist or superficially realist at least. There was more of a desire for explanations of why people were superhuman or different, and aside from LeGuin and Tolkien, who weren't the dominant source for D&D, most of it wasn't mythic/legendary-type stuff.

But that gradually changed and since the '00s really people are just much more willing to accept characters doing stuff that's beyond the norm without much of an explanation. C.f. the success, for example, of the truly ludicrous Fast & Furious series. No-one is suggesting that anyone there has supernatural powers, but... they're doing incredible, obviously impossible things and the audience isn't really there to question that.

Nor are they playing D&D to question that. They'd be playing DCC if they wanted to question that.


I don't know if these two played RPGs (Mitchell seems like he has) but this is an amazing summary of the sort of situation they seem to want, yeah:

I suspect a lot more people would be playing games like DCC if they knew they existed.

Unsurprisingly, I am both over 45 and got into fantasy through the more grounded material you mentioned. None of this, "since the 00's stuff matters enough to me to change my view, even if I enjoy some of it.

Also, I'd like to disagree with your perception of Tolkien. The Sillarillion is certainly mythic in tone, but the actual events in the Lord of the Rings (the books), on the ground, rhetoric aside, are remarkably grounded.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I would certainly buy an e8 (10?) version of 5e with the current levels 3 on stretched out up to 20 to slow down the advancement where the magic in particular caps out earlier.

Why stretch it out to 20? What benefit does that serve?

 

[James Gasik]

I don't think WotC has the same definition of hero that you do, and I don't agree with theirs.

I know this will come off as pedantic, but, uh, which definition are we using?

adjective
having the characteristics of a hero or heroine; very brave.
"heroic deeds"

noun
1.
behavior or talk that is bold or dramatic, especially excessively or unexpectedly so.
"the makeshift team performed heroics"

2.
short for heroic verse.

(I'm pretty sure it's not 2.)

 

[Minigiant]

Why stretch it out to 20? What benefit does that serve?

Some people want to level but never leave low level mechanics.

E6 should have been a DMG variant.​

 

[Micah Sweet]

I know this will come off as pedantic, but, uh, which definition are we using?

adjective
having the characteristics of a hero or heroine; very brave.
"heroic deeds"

noun
1.
behavior or talk that is bold or dramatic, especially excessively or unexpectedly so.
"the makeshift team performed heroics"

2.
short for heroic verse.

(I'm pretty sure it's not 2.)

WotC's definition seems to me to be "good guy who does good guy things, mostly 'cause its the right thing to do". Nearly all their adventures and most of their non-rule text reflects this.