D&D 5E What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

This is why ship to ship combat rules should not be a separate minigame.

Much like mass combat, dueling, negotiation,, wilderness survival, mech battles.etc, there should just be additional rules added on top of the standard operation agreed by the group.

5e tried sea rules in UA but it was way too much and too many for the standard game. While at the same time too few combat rules.

Worst of both worlds
 

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So, you admit that the rules are literally present. Well and fine.
But what is there is not working as ship combat rules. If they would have left then out and just wrote "start with the boarding action" would have been better and more useful.
These are literal broken rules that if used raw would lead to the most boring gaming experience ever.
 

But what is there is not working as ship combat rules. If they would have left then out and just wrote "start with the boarding action" would have been better and more useful.
These are literal broken rules that if used raw would lead to the most boring gaming experience ever.
Yet they are there, they exist. And your reading does not match everyone's experiences.
 

But what is there is not working as ship combat rules. If they would have left then out and just wrote "start with the boarding action" would have been better and more useful.
These are literal broken rules that if used raw would lead to the most boring gaming experience ever.
A bunch of RAW rules are bad.

Which goes back to my "5e expects the DM to be a vet" point.
 

But, again, this roles around to what I'm saying.

WotC has been very, very clear about this. They will provide a basic set of rules and whatnot to get you off the ground. Here's an adventure path, here's some background stuff, off you go. They will not provide you with detailed stuff. Ten years now and they've been really upfront about this. It's not a secret. Anyone who thinks WotC is going to give you fifty page treatises on ship to ship combat (as an example) is dreaming. It's not going to happen and WotC has flat out told everyone that they will not do this.

Plus, they have been promoting DM's Guild for years. Promoting it pretty regularly. But, it never seems to matter because if WotC doesn't do it, no one bothers. 🤷 I really don't get what people think is going to happen here. If you want more detailed ship combat rules, they're right there. There's several, professional quality systems available They are 100% right there.

But, because they don't say WotC on the cover, they get completely ignored. I don't know what WotC has to do to promote this more. Putting out bi-monthly Dragon Magazines for what, five or six years with highlights from DM's Guild creators hasn't put a dent in things. People simply refuse to accept that WOtC 100% WILL NOT give you what you want. They have told you, repeatedly, over and over again, that they are not going to do what you want.

But people still insist that WotC MUST deliver what they happen to want or doom and despair shall fall over the hobby. Well, ten years in, fantastic growth, and no doom in sight. Guess what folks, you lost this argument years ago. Anything now is just sour grapes.
 

But, again, this roles around to what I'm saying.

WotC has been very, very clear about this. They will provide a basic set of rules and whatnot to get you off the ground. Here's an adventure path, here's some background stuff, off you go. They will not provide you with detailed stuff. Ten years now and they've been really upfront about this. It's not a secret. Anyone who thinks WotC is going to give you fifty page treatises on ship to ship combat (as an example) is dreaming. It's not going to happen and WotC has flat out told everyone that they will not do this.

Plus, they have been promoting DM's Guild for years. Promoting it pretty regularly. But, it never seems to matter because if WotC doesn't do it, no one bothers. 🤷 I really don't get what people think is going to happen here. If you want more detailed ship combat rules, they're right there. There's several, professional quality systems available They are 100% right there.

But, because they don't say WotC on the cover, they get completely ignored. I don't know what WotC has to do to promote this more. Putting out bi-monthly Dragon Magazines for what, five or six years with highlights from DM's Guild creators hasn't put a dent in things. People simply refuse to accept that WOtC 100% WILL NOT give you what you want. They have told you, repeatedly, over and over again, that they are not going to do what you want.

But people still insist that WotC MUST deliver what they happen to want or doom and despair shall fall over the hobby. Well, ten years in, fantastic growth, and no doom in sight. Guess what folks, you lost this argument years ago. Anything now is just sour grapes.
But they don't do that consistently. Like if the spelljammer rules set would have been as good as ravenloft or ebberon, a lot less people would complain.
With Spelljammer we got like barley anything.
So even in comparison to other WotC 5e products Spelljammer is ... to use a neutral term "basic".
And the rules that are there are not a functioning set of rules.
Like, the RAW exploration rules work. They do what they are supposed to do. They could be better but they are a base point. The spelljammer ship to ship combat rules don't work.
The "rules" to create your own wildspace systems should be more than "Look at the two wildspace systems in the adventure as examples".

I use other 5e books as a baseline and in comparison to Ebberon or Ravenloft is Spelljammer just really bad. Even the Sword Coast Adventurers Guide is better.
 

Money is more of a concern than you're allowing for...especially if you want to run a game where encumbrance actually matters. Because there are scads of ways to spend just a bit of money and then essentially obviate all encumbrance concerns. If money flows like water, having encumbrance isn't better than lacking it.

Availability is another. Just because you have a million bucks and no weight limit doesn't mean you can find anything under the sun in Podunk.

Capacity in some form other than encumbrance can be a third. E.g., as I mentioned before, you can only wear so many weapons, hold so many things, etc. That's not relevant for everything, but it's relevant for some things. Great, you can carry a thousand suits of plate mail--too bad it takes forever to switch between them so there's literally no point. Etc.

Spoilage and other timing-based mechanics (which I alluded to previously.)

I'm sure I could develop more if I really sat down to think about it. Those are just off the top of my head.
You're coming at this from a premise of, "I don't like encumbrance. What can we do to make it not a thing?" That's not where we're coming from.
 

I think it has very little to do with the mechanics themselves. It really doesn't matter what mechanics you put in front of the players. And, unless the players are groovy with it, I kinda see their point.

If I invite you over to watch football and then in the third quarter, switch over to the baseball game every week, you're probably not going to be happy unless you really like baseball. The players want to watch football. I want to watch baseball for a quarter, and then go back to football. They have zero interest in baseball and just want to watch football. So, in the interests of everyone having a good time, I just switched to watching football and not try to sneak in a baseball game.

It really is kind of a bait and switch if you pop out a ship to ship combat system that isn't really D&D. Do it once in a campaign? Sure, nobody's going to complain about that. But, if you're running a naval campaign, and you're popping out this mini-game every session or two, I do kinda understand why players aren't interested. I'M interested. Fair enough. But, then again, I love war-games. I enjoy the heck out of them.

And, frankly, it took an embarrassingly long time for me to understand why my campaigns kept fizzling. Looking back, I realize now that I should have switched away from ship to ship combat YEARS ago. And, in D&D, it's so easy to do. You can't mount catapults on cogs. They don't work. Ballista? Maybe? But, again, kinda pointless. Add in a rule that ranged combat on ship is wildly inaccurate and cut all ranges by 75%. Poof, all combat starts at nearly boarding range and everyone is happy. Put in a bit that spell casting on water doesn't work very well because open water interferes with magic somehow and cut spell ranges by 75% too. Boom, done. I still get shipboard combat, the players are happy and everything works.

Heck, in Scarred Lands, that would be ridiculously simply if you used the Blood Sea - the taint of Titan's blood in the sea makes magic all wonky. There's a million ways to implement this and make it a lot simpler to use. Next time I try to run Ghosts of Saltmarsh, I'm definitely incorporating this. Maybe Procan, God of the Sea, has declared that all magic upon the waves is limited to second level spells or lower. Or limited by range. "A god did it" is as good an explanation as any.
Again, "everyone is happy", except you. Do your preferences not matter here?
 

Upfront: I really like 5e.

I'm inclined to say the "true issues" of D&D are as follows:

(1) It Doesn't Do Its Core Gameplay Well
D&D tries to be too many things to too many different player bases without adequately supporting any of them. (The italicised part of the prior sentence is, I think, the rub.) It makes sense for the market leading game, one with a long history of supporting some of the biggest strains of gameplay - "classic/old-school", "trad/adventure path", and "neo-trad/PC-story-driven" - to want to be able to accommodate all those styles, and fair enough! But it does so in a very unfocused and wishy-washy way, such that it doesn't robustly support any of these styles of play; what's more, it does so in a way that each of the different strains/styles of play interferes with the others.

For instance, if you want to play in survival mode, such that light, time, food, and encumbrance matter, D&D gets in the way of this: too many ancestries have darkvision, light is a cantrip, the ranger and goodberry make food a non-issue, and so on.

At the same time, if you want to play in a heroic mode, the expected adventuring day (one hour short rests, recovery schedule based on attrition over 4-8 encounters of varying difficulty) gets in your way, and so do all the rules that try to force survival gameplay on you.

If you want to play characters that, by your own standards, are grounded/down-to-Earth/whatever term you feel is appropriate, the way magic works gets in the way.

If you want to play larger-than-life characters (well... all right, if you want to play larger-than-life characters who aren't spellcasters), the way "martial" characters are designed (clearly meant to feel "grounded" over 20 levels - even if they don't feel "grounded" enough to the people who really want "grounded" characters!) interferes with your preferences.

I am sure other examples could be given.

Is there a Solution? I'm not sure, but it seems to me that if D&D were to start from the premise that its core gameplay is to provide a heroic fantastic adventure driven by the player characters and robustly support that, and then look at how it can robustly support older modes of play, it should be possible for it to do a better job of satisfying these disparate groups.

(2) It's Player Base Is Too Divided
This is partly a cause of point (1). The D&D player base is clustered into disparate camps with widely divergent sets of gameplay preferences - divergent to the point where they are often fundamentally at odds with one another.

This might not be a big concern for the D&D design team - unless, of course, the design team consists of factions divided up according to these gameplay preferences that want to see their own preferences prevail rather than have a cohesive vision for how the game can better support multiple playstyles. (The thread about Ben Rigg's presentation on 4e suggests that factionalism is a big problem at WotC, although I don't believe any mention is made of whether such factionalism reflects the broad divisions within the player base as regards playstyle preferences.)

Is there a solution? No, though maybe if D&D the game does a better job on point 1, the divisions in the player base won't matter so much. (Although I shouldn't expect any improvement in discourse.)

(3) The 2014 DMG is a Hot Mess
Plenty has been said on this subject, so I won't say any more, save to say that suffice to say it especially compounds the issues that follow from point (1).

Is there a solution? Trivially, yes. Hopefully WotC has been hard at work behind the scenes working to ensure the 2024 DMG is better laid out and organised. (I don't, however, hold out much hope that it will satisfactorily address the issues that arise from point (1), though it might at least alleviate them to some extent.)



Somewhat of an aside related to the current "subthread"...
Every week, I play a more-or-less strategic-operational level WW2 board game. This game does not have detailed rules for supply where you have to see to your stocks of oil, antimony, coal, steel, rubber, manganese, pork, textiles, etc. etc. etc. to make sure that your armies in the field can actually function. That level of detail is plain and simple out of scope for this game, because so much of the small-scale details are abstracted. Instead, supply is a binary - "are you in supply or aren't you?".

Most (if not all) board games operating on the same scale do something very similar. I'm not familiar with tactical-level WW2 games, but I'm sure they abstract it even further - when all the action is the fighting in Eastern Front Town одиндватри [*], knowing whether the Rhineland coal mines had enough output last quarter is even more out of scope when all you're trying to do is figure out whether your company can seize this town from (or hold it against) the Red Army.

What is more, even if you do have a game that operates exactly on the gameplay scale where it would be "in scope" carefully tracking supply chain inputs and transform them into specific outputs that your armies need to function (and then carefully distributing those outputs with hard decisions about who gets what), no one in their right mind would make a game with that level of detail, because that's not the kind of game people are interested in playing. (I mean, some niche number of people might be... but not enough for Compass Games, Decision Games, and so on to put any effort into making one it seems.)

To my mind, insisting on modern D&D having encumbrance by counting up pounds is like insisting on modern D&D games having rules for whether your injuries result in fatal Staph-A infections or whether you succumb to PTSD as a result of prolonged subterranean violence. It's like insisting that WW2 wargames include detailed supply rules tracing from raw materials to industrial output to stockpiles to delivery to the front.

To my mind, that sort of thing is (a) out of scope for the kind of heroic fantasy adventure that the game has mostly been about since the 1980s, and (b) uninteresting to the player base writ large.

As I understand it, many newer OSR games are abandoning counting up weight by pounds, not because they don't see survival gameplay as being important (indeed, I should think the opposite is the case), but because gameplay that players find interesting and compelling is more important than any ostensible or alleged "integrity" or "fidelity" to "realism"/"verisimilitude" or what-have-you.

Put another way, having to make decisions about how much loot you can carry out of the dungeon (and therefore having to decide what to leave behind) can be an interesting and compelling part of gameplay (although probably not a central part of any but the most classically-oriented of games), but unless you're a very small niche of the player base, being obliged to count up weight by pounds (or coins) will make such decisions tedious and tiresome instead.

[*] "Onetwothree"
 

...Like even un Baldurs Gate 3 the world is not a living thing. I can spam long rests as much as I want as long as I have the resources. The world is on hold for me until I decide to interact with that specific thing....
This is true of most of the game, but some elements of the storyline do advance if you take too long...
 

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