D&D 5E What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

[Lanefan]

Fine. I do have one final set questions, because you haven't actually addressed it yet.

What, to you, is the benefit of having shovels, tents, bedrolls, mess kits, and the like in the rulebook?

Mostly that it encourages players to give some thought to these things, even if only during initial char-gen and once in a while thereafter. On a broader view, it makes them remember the mundane.

It also gives me-as-DM a handy price guide as a start point if-when the PCs scoop a bunch of this stuff during an adventure and want to sell it.

Does anyone reference their entries in the rulebook for anything beyond cost and weight?

Rarely. However, that's not an argument for saying they shouldn't be listed in the rulebook, if only because they have to be listed somewhere where they'll be seen by all and where else would they go?

Players rarely if ever reference the species write-ups after initial char-gen but they're still in - and should be in - the rulebook.

 

[Lanefan]

while I hate record keeping games as much as anyone I do see more DM fights over not having them than having them. I can easily see the arguments. "my sword is broke I pull out my shovel and ready an action." ,<DM> "who said you had a shovel?" <player> "i've got camping Gear?" Table explodes. especially if you have detail oriented people who are going to argue over the details <shoot me now> of the unimportant whether or not you have a shovel with the DM who's pissed they didn't account for it because it's not a listed item.

Yep. If it's not on your character sheet you ain't got it, and if there's a generic "camping gear" option available there'll be a write-up somewhere of exactly what that includes.

to be fair usually the same person who has a problem with you cutting a sapling and making your own quarter staff. <Your not a carpenter or a weaponsmith. why would you think you could do that?> makes you wonder how cave men didn't die out. LOL

Not guilty. I'm fine with characters doing stuff like that.

 

[pemerton]

How easily/seamlessly do you think this could port to D&D in terms of giving advantage (5e) or a +-something bonus (other e's) on the check?

I haven't tried to use Torchbearer rules in D&D. My guess is that inventory slots could probably be carried across OK; but the actual utility of gear in action resolution would be harder to emulate, because it's not always clear how it would fit in. For instance, because D&D doesn't really have a default framework for suffering conditions due to inclement weather, it's not clear how spending a torso slot to wear a sweater would actually pay off in D&D play.

 

[James Gasik]

Ya know, that might be the best idea I've seen for how to run that spell in like, forever.

How's this:

LTH creates a wood-framed 15x15' 9-person canvas tent* the inside of which remains at a comfortable temperature unless a) the temperature outside is extreme or b) the flap is left open. Can withstand winds of up to 40 mph but will collapse if hit with a Gust of Wind spell; will also collapse if the roof load exceeds 200lb weight. Is nominally 12' high but will adjust if there isn't enough headroom, cannot be cast in areas less than 3 feet high. Damp or wet ground beneath the tent will be magically dried once, at time of casting; standing or running water (e.g. puddles, rivulets, etc.) is not affected.

* - kind of like the framed tents they live in in M*A*S*H.

It's hard to find rules exploits with a simple tent, but a spell invites them and they need to be proactively shut down.

Long ago, I had this idea to use Shrink Item to carry around a miniaturized shelter that I could unshrink whenever the party needed a shelter. Then someone gently reminded me that Tiny Hut is a thing; a lower level spell that does more than my proposed portable shed would.

 

[Lanefan]

@pemerton FYI there's some wacky quote tags in your most recent reply to me (just up from this post).

 

[Warpiglet-7]

The true issues, from least severe to most severe:

1. Polymorph and summoning effects need to use templates or they will never be balanced. It's the only fix, and the developers have only showed us deeply unsatisfying versions of it, but it's the only fix that scales. The other partial fix is a fixed list of what you're specifically allowed to do, and that's basically the same thing but worse.
2. Multiclassing warps class design. Abilities that should be very early are pushed later to make level 1-3 into a "tar pit" to try to give multiclassing a hidden cost that players won't complain about. The truth is that the game would be better without multiclassing.
3. Spellcasting, especially spells above level 6, are so wildly better than any other ability in the game that the only abilities in the game that feel viable are spells. Any new ability introduced into the game, whether it's Supremacy Dice, or Ki, or Weapon Mastery, or anything else, is so wildly outclassed by spellcasting that they don't feel relevant. Because they're not relevant. This is also why basically every ability turns into spellcasting. It's such a dominant ability that it's the only relevant ability.
4. The game cannot be fixed. D&D is designed to replicate past game editions, not to be a good TTRPG. Matt Colville's critical comments on the equipment list and what dungeons are for are entirely correct. This is permanent until the game fails so catastrophically or becomes so out-of-touch that nobody wants to play it. Like it was in 1997 -- ignoring the fact that there were a lot of people still playing it and just not BUYING it -- and we are currently so far from that reality that it's not even possible to conceive of the game improving in a real or meaningful way. The game is broken. And it will not be fixed. Not in the next 10 years or 20 years. Probably not in our lifetime. If you want a TTRPG that doesn't have the flaws above, do not play D&D.

This cannot stand!

And I will start protesting soon. But not Saturday. We are getting a game together high noon and ordering pizza!

 

[pemerton]

@pemerton FYI there's some wacky quote tags in your most recent reply to me (just up from this post).

I don't think so. I quoted your question. And I quoted my reply to a very similar question from not far upthread.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I did try to make light of the situation in the shovel post, hence the " ". But you really would need a ton of info to know how much you can shovel. There is no constant. So if we had something along the lines of "you can move a square foot of dirt every minute" and I'm envisioning the heavy clay soil around my house that I need a pickaxe to break up before I can shovel much at all, that's not going to work. If I'm envisioning dirt that was recently excavated and quite loose or a sandy beach a square foot a minute is low. Heck, I lived in Arizona for a while, I doubt I could have gotten more than a couple inches with just a shovel.

Ya know, that might be the best idea I've seen for how to run that spell in like, forever.

How's this:

LTH creates a wood-framed 15x15' 9-person canvas tent* the inside of which remains at a comfortable temperature unless a) the temperature outside is extreme or b) the flap is left open. Can withstand winds of up to 40 mph but will collapse if hit with a Gust of Wind spell; will also collapse if the roof load exceeds 200lb weight. Is nominally 12' high but will adjust if there isn't enough headroom, cannot be cast in areas less than 3 feet high. Damp or wet ground beneath the tent will be magically dried once, at time of casting; standing or running water (e.g. puddles, rivulets, etc.) is not affected.

I thought @Gammadoodler's point was quite a clear one: spells could quite easily have their effects defined by reference to familiar everyday things - so Move Earth could be defined by reference to the amount of earth-moving labour a person with STR 10 could do with an ordinary shovel in 1 hour with this particular soil and/or rock.

Tiny Hut could be defined by reference to the camping equipment on the equipment list. Etc.

There is a spell system in a RPG that actually does this: in Torchbearer, the Floating Disc spell (called Mystic Porter) has its capacity defined by reference to backpack slots; the Mage Light ability has its illumination defined by reference to candles, torches and lanterns; a number of spells and prayers that interact with resting and camping use the same explanatory categories as the rules for making camp; the teleport spell (called Shadow Gate) has its range categories defined by reference to the rules for overland journeys; etc.

If that is considered inadequate spell description, than it must follow that the rules' description of everyday things and everyday equipment is inadequate. In Torchbearer it is not, because the game has reasonably tight rules for handling slots, and light, and camping, and journeying, and so on. (As per my post not too far upthread.) The fact that, in 5e, it might be considered inadequate to define spells in this way suggests that the equipment rules could do with some tightening up or some elaboration, if they are meant to be meaningful.

But I watched the Matt Colville video that @Bacon Bits linked to upthread, and I tend to agree with Colville that the equipment list in 5e seems largely vestigial.

i don't know how well it would be recieved or not but personally i would really like mundane gear to be just the slightest bit magical, like, just scraping the lower bounds of cantrip equivilant level magic items, Tiny Hut is basically a larger instant version of a 'mundane' tent that you don't need to carry around, a shovel will always shift at minimum a 5ft cube of dirt in an hour but can move more by someone with a higher strength score, soap dissolved in water can be used to create an area as if affected by the Grease spell (DC based on amount of soap per area created)

And like was suggested, spell effects being described in comparison to relevant mundane tools and equipment:
a lantern illuminates X area with bright light and Y further area with dim light, it may be extinguished if XYZ occurrences,
Then later on in spells:
the light spell causes an affected object to produce light equivalent to a lit Lantern, which illuminates an area of..., the spell lasts for...

 

[Oofta]

i don't know how well it would be recieved or not but personally i would really like mundane gear to be just the slightest bit magical, like, just scraping the lower bounds of cantrip equivilant level magic items, Tiny Hut is basically a larger instant version of a 'mundane' tent that you don't need to carry around, a shovel will always shift at minimum a 5ft cube of dirt in an hour but can move more by someone with a higher strength score, soap dissolved in water can be used to create an area as if affected by the Grease spell (DC based on amount of soap per area created)

And like was suggested, spell effects being described in comparison to relevant mundane tools and equipment:
a lantern illuminates X area with bright light and Y further area with dim light, it may be extinguished if XYZ occurrences,
Then later on in spells:
the light spell causes an affected object to produce light equivalent to a lit Lantern, the spell lasts for...

I was curious, so went looking to see if someone had come up with a magical shovel and I give you ...

Spoiler: Detailed description

Mister Shovel
Wondrous item, rare

This magical shovel has an animated face carved into it. It works as a trusty tool and friendly digging companion. Mister Shovel can be wielded as a magic weapon, equivalent to a quarterstaff with a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls.

Dig. As an action while holding this shovel, you can remove a 5-foot cube of dirt, sand, or clay from a space within your reach. As you dig, Mister Shovel instantly gobbles up the earth and stores it in a pocket dimension. Mister Shovel can store up to twenty 5-foot cubes of earth within itself before it’s full.

Expel Earth. If Mister Shovel has earth stored within itself, you can use your action to expel one 5-foot cube of earth onto a space within your reach. The expelled earth immediately falls to the ground and becomes a 5-foot mound of loose earth. Traversing over or through the mound is difficult terrain. A Large or smaller creature within the area must make a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw to see if it can successfully move into an unoccupied adjacent space, or a DC 15 Strength saving throw if it wishes to stay in its space. On a failed save, the creature is knocked prone and restrained by the weight of the earthen mound until it uses its action to free itself.

Sentience. Mister Shovel is a sentient, neutral good shovel with an Intelligence of 11, a Wisdom of 8, and a Charisma of 16. It can see and hear out to a range of 60 feet. The shovel can speak, read, and understand Common. Mister Shovel is a polite and helpful companion who is always hungry for dirt and happiest when digging. Mister Shovel doesn’t like being used as a weapon, and apologizes to anything it bonks.

“Man! Thiths sthuffth iths good!-” Mister Shovel was blabbering excitedly through mouthfuls of dirt, barely intelligible as Jesse dug at the base of the wall.
“Shush! I’m not trying to alert the guards!” She hissed. If they were spotted, the whole fort would descend upon them.
“Hey, itsth not MY faul-” Jesse was sweating profusely as she jammed Mister Shovel into the ground again, muffling its speech. This was a disaster.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Long ago, I had this idea to use Shrink Item to carry around a miniaturized shelter that I could unshrink whenever the party needed a shelter. Then someone gently reminded me that Tiny Hut is a thing; a lower level spell that does more than my proposed portable shed would.

The answer to this is to make Tiny Hut not a thing, or reduce its power such that it isn't miles better than a pocket tent.