What are your thought on the Mystic Theurge?

[Psion]

Hmm... if you assume, that there is usually a cleric and a wizard (or something of similar proportions) in the party, that doesn't seem to be such a big deal.

You don't see the "big deal" about one character having the equivalent "problem solving capability" of 2 characters?

That's a spotlight hog in the making to me.

At least in my experience, it's rather unlikely, that the MT is going to step on anyone's toes that way.

My epxerience differs.

That's definitely not the case here. 4 fights per day is a rare thing usually. If I had to guess, I would say the average is closer to 2 in our games. There are other encounters/situations, where spells might come into handy, though, of course.

You understand, of course, that I'm not pretending to divine what goes on in your game in the statement that is in reply to? Rather, I was characterizing the standard argument I hear characterizing the MT as weak. People typically hammer on how weak the MT is based on lacking 3 levels worth of SR penetration and your nastiest combat spells. Those are purely combat oriented arguments, not utility arguments. My games aren't purely combat oriented, and even in my combats, characters often face challenges and difficulties for which SR is irrelevant but flexibility and breadth of capability are very relevant.

 

[Psion]

To be fair, I should point out that one should compare a PrC like the MT with the most powerful PrC build that can be had in place of it - not with base classes.

I disagree. There are a variety of PrCs, some of which are acceptable, some of which are not. The power equivalent of "I don't have to be the faster than the monster, just faster than the slowest character" in the party is not true. It is not good enough to be less potent than the most potent PrC. Both can be unacceptable.

 

[Crothian]

You don't see the "big deal" about one character having the equivalent "problem solving capability" of 2 characters?

That's a spotlight hog in the making to me.

The class will turn someone into a spot light hog? I've never seen it do that.

 

[Psion]

The class will turn someone into a spot light hog? I've never seen it do that.

Well, maybe, as implied in my first post in this thread, you run games different than I do.

 

[billd91]

The class will turn someone into a spot light hog? I've never seen it do that.

One of my players had person experience in another game with a mystic theurge played by someone else. He thought it was horrible because it steps on the niches of other characters in the party. In other words, it doesn't so much hog the spotlight as keeps that spotlight from focusing on certain characters without also focusing on it.

 

[Crothian]

Well, maybe, as implied in my first post in this thread, you run games different than I do.

Okay, then let's investigate that. To ensure my players all have the spotlight at somepoint and a nicht I usually make sure that there is something for everyone. Even if I have two players playing the same race with the same class I make sure there is something for each of them.

What is it about your own game that causes problems with this class?

 

[Agent Oracle]

It's actually pretty well balanced: you almost never run out of spells (Which pisses off Meatgrinder GM's) but your capabilities are universally stunted.

A dedicated party cleric heals better, and turns undead FAR better, and can wear heavier armor. AND has a better Attack bonus, and has better hit dice, and better class abilities (they get better bonuses from their chosen domains), and better

A dedicated spell caster has better saves, better attack, better familiar... and most importantly, a higher caster level

The Mystic Theurge has an ungodly number of spells, but it's almost two whole caster levels behind everyone else. At peak, a MT has to choose between either casting Divine Or arcane 9th level spells, since thye can never achieve both without going into epic levels...

 

[Thanee]

You don't see the "big deal" about one character having the equivalent "problem solving capability" of 2 characters?

Not quite the same. He will be lagging behind one and a half spell level usually, which means the more powerful 'solutions' are not available. Combined with a similar (but probably more noticeable) lack in the combat area, that seems *roughly* fine to me at least.

My experience differs.

In that case, I can certainly understand your assessment.

You understand, of course, that I'm not pretending to divine what goes on in your game in the statement that is in reply to?

Noone is expecting this.

Rather, I was characterizing the standard argument I hear characterizing the MT as weak. People typically hammer on how weak the MT is based on lacking 3 levels worth of SR penetration and your nastiest combat spells. Those are purely combat oriented arguments, not utility arguments.

I was merely adding, that while I consider the MT weak (before reaching really high levels, anyways) - and not just from theory, but also from practice with two MT characters so far at various levels - this is not purely related to combat. Though, I agree, that combat is their weakest side.

Just adding some experiences from a slightly different angle, guess I'm somewhere in the middle between your games and those games you were refering to.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

A dedicated spell caster has better saves, ...

Better saves!? Where should those come from?

Arcane spellcasters typically have about the worst saves you can get.

...and most importantly, a higher caster level

Until Practiced Spellcaster (so basically one extra feat, or two), to be fair.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Alceste]

Better saves!? Where should those come from?

Arcane spellcasters typically have about the worst saves you can get.



Until Practiced Spellcaster (so basically one extra feat, or two), to be fair.

Bye
Thanee

Yeah, you really need practiced spellcaster for both classes. Practiced spellcaster (wizard) is more important, but Practiced spellcaster (cleric) comes in handy an awful lot too.

In my experience with cleric / wizard / MT, I have not been impressed even at higher levels (Non-epic because we end campaigns way before then). The lack of turning / good fort save really hurts vs pure clerics (especially since most undead are dam fast and require fort saves). With the divine feats (spellpower & might) pure clerics can throw down some serious damage too.

Pure wizards (rare, most like full casting PrCs) can also throw down alot more damage especially versus creatures with high SR because they have feats to spare on both spell penetration feats and have a better array of spells.