What are your thought on the Mystic Theurge?

[Agent Oracle]

Better saves!? Where should those come from? Arcane spellcasters typically have about the worst saves you can get.

My apologies: Dedicated casters (Wizards / sorceres) have excellent Will saves. Straight Clerics have excellent Fort. and Will saves.

Mystic Theurges have a good will save for a 10-level class. otherwise, they are just as weak as an arcane caster.

Until Practiced Spellcaster (so basically one extra feat, or two), to be fair.

Unfortunatly, you hit on another weakness of the MT: none of the bonus feats of a Wizard. So if they waste a feat on PS, they can't gain access to things like item creation, or metamagic effects, or even combat casting.

 

[moritheil]

I disagree. There are a variety of PrCs, some of which are acceptable, some of which are not. The power equivalent of "I don't have to be the faster than the monster, just faster than the slowest character" in the party is not true. It is not good enough to be less potent than the most potent PrC. Both can be unacceptable.

I'm not sure I understand your analogy. I am stating that the MT has been considered weak by many because it offers less power than many other classes. You seem to be stating that those other classes may well be banned, so the MT can't be considered weak. I really don't understand how the strength or weakness of the MT in an absolute sense has anything to do with the quirks of an individual campaign in which many PrCs are banned. The two topics are distinct.

If other PrCs are banned, then my assessment might become "of the remaining PrCs, MT is the least horrible" - not that suddenly MT has become better than other (nonexistent) caster PrCs.

 

[Thanee]

My apologies: Dedicated casters (Wizards / sorceres) have excellent Will saves. Straight Clerics have excellent Fort. and Will saves.

Mystic Theurges have a good will save for a 10-level class. otherwise, they are just as weak as an arcane caster.

Mystic Theurges have better Fort saves (by 2) than Wizards and better Will saves (by 1-2 without the 5+ or so Wis difference) as well (unless the Wizard has two PrC, then it's about equal). Reflex is the same most likely (or lower, since Dex will likely be lower, considering they need Wis, which a Wizard does not).

Unfortunatly, you hit on another weakness of the MT: none of the bonus feats of a Wizard.

Yep, feats are certainly a weakness, considering, that 1-2 times PS is a must IMHO.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Pure wizards (rare, most like full casting PrCs) can also throw down alot more damage especially versus creatures with high SR because they have feats to spare on both spell penetration feats and have a better array of spells.

Spell Resistance is no problem for any of those thanks to Assay Resistance. Once they reach high enough levels, MT can prepare plenty of those.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The MT is very weak at low to low-mid levels. I think it becomes barely okay when the character hits 10th level.

Being a 9th level PC who can cast bucketloads of 3rd level spells is playable but pretty sucky. It can work if you are in a party/campaign that lets you take advantage of all those buffs -- that is not every campaign. But powerful this ain't. And it looks much worse at lower levels.

A spellcaster has 3 basic combat tactics:
(1) Direct damage
(2) Battlefield control
(3) Buffing

Going MT effectively means foregoing direct damage as a principle tactic, even if you invest a very precious feat in Practiced Spellcaster. Delaying access to the meaty 4th and 5th level spells is a huge hit to your ability to shape the battlefield. So you are outright weak in this area until your character can reach 10th level. Your ability to buff is very good if you have a chance to squeeze advantage of these spells.

I can see how the MT could potentially be downright ugly powerful at epic levels with the right blend of other PrCs. I can also see why some might be nervous about starting a campaign at 15th level and having a player appear with a fully formed MT PC highly optimized for that level of play. The bottom line IMHO is the MT character is trailing a straigh caster, and he is not catching up until he has access to 9th level spells like a the real spellcaster in the party.

The lack of Wizard bonus feats really hurst. The MT is desperate for Practiced Spellcaster. It is so very sad to see someone with so very many spells at his fingertips with such limited means to acquire metamagic feats, and such limited means of exploiting the metamgic feats he has due to a low top level spell slot.

 

[Crothian]

Spell Resistance is no problem for any of those thanks to Assay Resistance. Once they reach high enough levels, MT can prepare plenty of those.

Bye
Thanee

Well, you can only do that at 10th level or higher and it's a gamble to have them prepared as your highest level spell as you might not run into sometrhing with SR.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I played an aspiring MT (Cloistered Cleric/Wizard) who didn't quite make it to 7th level to take actual MT levels. He was horribly pincushioned in a battle by archers.

He was extremely underpowered compared to the rest of the party. He was almost a chore to play because I had to wait so long in between times he could really be handy.

He never stepped on the toes of the party sorcerer. The sorcerer focused on blowing things up and my character focused on buffing and healing the party in battle.

DS

 

[Agent Oracle]

Actually, when i first played a MT: i built him for survival. All the defensive spells available. The GM was a brilliant tactician, and had already done two TPK's in three weeks of play, so I figured: better safe than dead. I started shutting down combats with bottom-level spells like Enthrall and Hypnotisim because the GM was fond of throwing a swarm of single hit-die monsters against us... and when bigger threats came up i would Web, Scare, or whatever i could do.

Didn't get to play him for long, but he caused me to think out all these combinations of low-level spells that would let m survive for one... round... longer.

Like voluntarily failing my saving throw vs. a sepia snake sigil...

Of course, this is the same GM who threw a CR 8 encounter at a ECL 5-ish party. He was also fond of overnight ambushes, so I picked a god that specifically said that their clerics prayed at sundown to get their spells back. So I always had either a full compliment of divine spells, or a full compliment of arcane spells.

 

[Psion]

I'm not sure I understand your analogy. I am stating that the MT has been considered weak by many because it offers less power than many other classes. You seem to be stating that those other classes may well be banned, so the MT can't be considered weak.

No, I am not. I was responding to your assertion that I should not be using core classes as a baseline for comparison of PrCs, only other PrCs. Just because there exist classes that are greatly overpowered does not mean that I cannot make a judgement about a class that is barely over the line.

I really don't understand how the strength or weakness of the MT in an absolute sense has anything to do with the quirks of an individual campaign in which many PrCs are banned. The two topics are distinct.

I'd say one of the two is ficitonal. Campaign style always comes into consideration when it comes to whether or not a certain class (or any character option) is acceptable.

 

[Psion]

Okay, then let's investigate that. To ensure my players all have the spotlight at somepoint and a nicht I usually make sure that there is something for everyone. Even if I have two players playing the same race with the same class I make sure there is something for each of them.

What is it about your own game that causes problems with this class?

What are we investigating here? It sounds like you think there's a "problem" to be solved. The problem, as it exists, is only the standard concepts of niches and allocating challenges. You go about this by addressing the challenges (by targeting your challenges to your characters). I go about by addressing player capabilities to reincorce niche protection and specialities (by retooling the MT to be more "targeted", among other things.)