What are your thought on the Mystic Theurge?

[Lord Rasputin]

Wow. I never knew this before. I've completely overlooked it. This makes, IMO, Epic Level MT's worthless. Other than this, all you get is a bonus feat every 6 levels.

You'd be better off trading off levelling the two classes you used to become a MT. You'd give up a feat very 6 levels to gain other class abilities like better familiars or undead turning without giving up any spellcasting ability.

At 50th level, if a character who hit epic levels as Cleric 5/Wizard 5/Mystic Theurge 10 went up as a Mystic Theurge (making him Cleric 5/Wizard 5/Mystic Theurge 40), what he'd have on someone who went Cleric 20/Wizard 20/Mystic Theurge 10 was 5 epic bonus feats. The guy who alternated would have three non-epic bonus feats, 30 hit points and a better familiar, which closes the gap a bit (I'm ignoring his heightened turn undead, since being able to turn undead as a 20th level cleric is useless in a game with 50th level charactes -- an evil cleric commanding undead would be more useful). At that point, the character alternating cleric and wizard would start gaining epic bonus feats fast.

I still get the idea that I'm missing something, reading the posts of folks who say that epic mystic theurges are hella powerful.

 

[GeorgeFields]

At 50th level, if a character who hit epic levels as Cleric 5/Wizard 5/Mystic Theurge 10 went up as a Mystic Theurge (making him Cleric 5/Wizard 5/Mystic Theurge 40), what he'd have on someone who went Cleric 20/Wizard 20/Mystic Theurge 10 was 5 epic bonus feats. The guy who alternated would have three non-epic bonus feats, 30 hit points and a better familiar, which closes the gap a bit (I'm ignoring his heightened turn undead, since being able to turn undead as a 20th level cleric is useless in a game with 50th level charactes -- an evil cleric commanding undead would be more useful). At that point, the character alternating cleric and wizard would start gaining epic bonus feats fast.

I still get the idea that I'm missing something, reading the posts of folks who say that epic mystic theurges are hella powerful.

I get the point on feats and broke it down for myself.

as you said,
Cle 5 / Wiz 5 / MT 40 = 1 bonus wizard & 5 bonus epic
Cle 5 / Wiz 30 / MT 15 = 3 bonus wizard & 3 bonus epic - better familiar
Cle 10 / Wiz 30 / MT 10 = same as above with better undead turning

Of course, by then you get 10 epic feats just from character levels.

I guess it's all about what you're doing with the charcater. Personally, I've only had two epic characters. Both were 22nd level after converting from 1e & 2e. I've never got to play either in 3e. Other than that, my highest character ever was 17th level.

Hail & Peace

 

[Particle_Man]

Ok, I have nothing to say about level 50 (I have never gone above 15th).

But note that almost all of the cool extra stuff of MT can be duplicated at the cost of one feat, called Leadership (available a level sooner than MT, by the way). Play a single classed cleric and get a wizard cohort, or vice-versa. Then you have your cake of high level spell access and get to eat it too by having a caster with the "other" spells. And since the cohort is a separate dude, you can effectivley cast two spells per round!

If on the other hand you think it is cool to never run out of spells, please see the Warlock.

Maybe a Warlock with the Leadership feat?

 

[GeorgeFields]

Ok, I have nothing to say about level 50 (I have never gone above 15th).

But note that almost all of the cool extra stuff of MT can be duplicated at the cost of one feat, called Leadership (available a level sooner than MT, by the way). Play a single classed cleric and get a wizard cohort, or vice-versa. Then you have your cake of high level spell access and get to eat it too by having a caster with the "other" spells. And since the cohort is a separate dude, you can effectivley cast two spells per round!

If on the other hand you think it is cool to never run out of spells, please see the Warlock.

Maybe a Warlock with the Leadership feat?

Sure, go and ruin the whole thread......

 

[Crothian]

Ok, I have nothing to say about level 50 (I have never gone above 15th).

But note that almost all of the cool extra stuff of MT can be duplicated at the cost of one feat, called Leadership (available a level sooner than MT, by the way). Play a single classed cleric and get a wizard cohort, or vice-versa. Then you have your cake of high level spell access and get to eat it too by having a caster with the "other" spells.

Do people actually run their own cohorts? It is an NPC. Do people run all the followers to? I can see it now 4 guys with a single character sheet and one guy with 10!!

 

[Thotas]

My 9th level MT is not out-classing her compatriots, that's for sure. Damage-wise, I can't even begin to compete with the sorcerer. As the only divine caster in the group, I'm continually tapped out on that side of my resources -- the demand is pretty high, goes pretty quick. Someone earlier said something about the "I'll have that spell next level" chant. I know that one all too well!

 

[spyscribe]

If your DM is concerned that the Mystic Theurge is overpowered, you can tell him or her that I play a Sor 4/Cloistered Cleric 3/MT 1 in a game where she is one of two people in the known world who can cast both arcane and divine spells.

Before my DM allowed the build we ran all the numbers we could think of, and wound up going ahead. In practice, the character has more versatility than a straight sorcerer, is harder to catch completely unprepared than a straight cleric, and ultimately, is an excellent second in any situtaion that does not call for direct melee combat.

She can heal herself and the party cleric, she does decent boom with her magic missiles, and 20 rounds into a combat she still has second-level spells to throw around while the party wizard is digging into scrolls.

Your milage will be affected by game world, party composition, and other factors, but in my experience, it's not an obnoxious build. Theurges have spells the way bards have skills. Plenty of options, but very real constraints on their use.

 

[Thanee]

I still get the idea that I'm missing something, reading the posts of folks who say that epic mystic theurges are hella powerful.

Well, I for one am not saying that the Epic progression of the MT is powerful, but the concept of gaining both caster progressions at the same time is. The Epic MT basically took care of that problem by limiting it to an alternating progression. The bonus Epic feats are indeed the only real incentive there...

However, if you combine MT with another such class (True Necromancer?), you will quickly break those limits.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Do people actually run their own cohorts? It is an NPC. Do people run all the followers to? I can see it now 4 guys with a single character sheet and one guy with 10!!

Called the DM...

Bye
Thanee

 

[moritheil]

Astounding. Totally astounding that people still find MT to be overpowered - I've never heard it described in test conditions as anything other than weak.

To be fair, I should point out that one should compare a PrC like the MT with the most powerful PrC build that can be had in place of it - not with base classes.