D&D 3E/3.5 what book are 3.5 forsakers in?

[ThirdWizard]

A magic-less game is completely different than a normal D&D game. A 15th level character without any magic will be hard pressed to take on a CR 10 encounter.

 

[Storyteller01]

A magic-less game is completely different than a normal D&D game. A 15th level character without any magic will be hard pressed to take on a CR 10 encounter.

Exactly!


But getting back to the original question;

Nope, don't think a 3.5 FOrsaker exists.

As for the PrC's playablility? That's really up to the player and DM. There are differening views on playing 'by the book'. Even though the DMG provides prices for magic items, it doesn't provide a frequency for how often you find wizards selling them. ALthough I would ask the players a question: given the xp cost of making items, would YOU set up shop selling magic items to anyone who walks in?


Same goes with healing and resurrection. It provides prices (or donations) for healing/resurrections, but I don't think it provides a listing as to what level clerics you can find in a church.

It's amazing how many small villages have clerics capable of bringing back the dead!


Closest thing to a 'controlled' magic item listing is the random treasure chart.


YMMV

 

[ThirdWizard]

If you're *really* hard pressed, you can use the city wealth rules to try and figure out how easy it is to buy magical items in D&D, but then you end up with one million potions of cure light wounds in a metropolis. [I didn't do the calculations, but that isn't too big a stretch, I think.] Personlly, I wouldn't use those rules.

Here's something I just thought of about Forsakers. In a low-magic game, they'll probably be overpowered, but in a normal high-magic game they'll be underpowered. So, they only fit in with those "moderation" weirdos, who aren't vocal at all so they probably won't defend themselves. Or care, since they'll probably think about it for a second, dismiss the idea, then get back to doing whatever it is that they do.

 

[Saeviomagy]

But claiming that a PrC is not playable because he doesn't use magic? Everyone has fly? Everyone uses teleport? Seems like D&D may be heading towards the 'one trick pony' route if magic is that important to a game.

D&D IS a one trick pony. Didn't you notice? It's not the best system for playing anything except D&D. Note how many alterations are needed to do something like conan...

 

[Saeviomagy]

Here's something I just thought of about Forsakers. In a low-magic game, they'll probably be overpowered, but in a normal high-magic game they'll be underpowered. So, they only fit in with those "moderation" weirdos, who aren't vocal at all so they probably won't defend themselves. Or care, since they'll probably think about it for a second, dismiss the idea, then get back to doing whatever it is that they do.

The biggest problem with the forsaker is that his power is independant of the magic level, and the magic level is probably one of the biggest things that changes from campaign to campaign.

Further to that, his power level is not set for the default magic level of D&D as presented in the books. It's far, far, far too low. So even to use it in a normal campaign, you have to change it.

Finally there's the fact that as levels increase, magic becomes more prevalent and important, and the bonuses from the class fail to keep up. Which makes for stealth suckage. The player doesn't know his character sucks until it's too late to fix.

In a campaign with no magical healing, no planar travel, no underwater adventures, no aerial adventures, no adventures in the hot depths of a volcano, no invisible opponents, no incorporeal opponents, no ethereal opponents, no level drains, no attribute drains and no magical diseases, the forsaker is just fine. But that's not what D&D is.

 

[Storyteller01]

It may not be so much that 'magic is important' as D&D's need to maintain balance (or the publisher's view there of).

Try running a 'Harry Potter'ish campaign, with everyone starting as wizards or sorcerers. CR will need to be adjusted in the other direction. Plenty of magic, but until the spellcasters acheive very high levels they'll be running for their lives.

You could run an all fighter camapign, but everyone knows what happens when you don't have a spellcaster in your party.

Wish I could say the same about a party of nothing but clerics or druids, but survival IS their thing. Oh well.

Yea I know, they aren't Forsakers. But it still illustrates how the game is set to play in a specific format. Anything (even core classes) that don't conform to that methodology is going to 'suck'.

So maybe its not the PrC itself that has problems?

 

[ThirdWizard]

Well it is insofar as it doesn't emulate the tank, healer/support, skill-monkey, or artillery well, and it can't benefit from the healer/support roll, so it sort of steps outside the bounds of what is expected sense in multiple ways. The closest it comes to is the tank, but not utilizing support magic and healing as well as use of magical defenses/offenses, it doesn't match up to a fighter, barbarian, or paladin, power-wise, in a default D&D game.

 

[moritheil]

The disjunction effect is too much. Spell blank is too much of a departure from conventional mechanics, as is the volume calculations for his dispelling-style radius. Drop spell blank, and make forsaken presence a flat save against the effect. Also specify that it works against all supernatural, spell like and spell effects that enter or pass through the area, regardless of whether they normally allow a save or not.

I'd change forsaken touch to be more like dispel than disjunction.

Ah, I missed this comment because I expected people to comment in the other thread here.

ThirdWizard, check that PrC out, if you have time. It's a 3.5 Forsaker whose power (and sacrifice) depends on the prevalence of magic in a campaign.

I'm interested in balancing it to make it at least as powerful as a standard character with equivalent levels who took a focused PrC, but without the use of any magic whatsoever. I think I've done OK, but the other thread can always use more comments!

 

[Saeviomagy]

Try running a 'Harry Potter'ish campaign, with everyone starting as wizards or sorcerers. CR will need to be adjusted in the other direction. Plenty of magic, but until the spellcasters acheive very high levels they'll be running for their lives.

True - they'll run for their lives, then come back and whomp whatever it was that made them run. With knowledge of a threat (either because you got away, or you already knew about it), magic can conquer just about anything.

Big stat bonuses and limited healing cannot. No matter how much forewarning a forsaker has that an adventure will take place underwater, he cannot do a thing about it.

 

[moritheil]

True - they'll run for their lives, then come back and whomp whatever it was that made them run. With knowledge of a threat (either because you got away, or you already knew about it), magic can conquer just about anything.

Big stat bonuses and limited healing cannot. No matter how much forewarning a forsaker has that an adventure will take place underwater, he cannot do a thing about it.

Unless he has the aquatic subtype, or the DM allows some technology to seep into the game, I think you're right.

Of course, an associated question is, "What kind of DM has his players play forsakers, and then throws all manner of underwater adventures at them?"

But that's not really a forsaker issue at all, that's a DM issue.