D&D 3E/3.5 what book are 3.5 forsakers in?
- Thread starter Particle_Man
- Start date
I really think they would have updated this class for 3.5, except they didn't want have both it and VoP stick around. A forsaker with VoP is nuts.
Also, some people were commenting on what should be fixed if the PrC were to be updated. Do you guys think the SR is appropriate? As far as I know it is the only SR every that has stacked. A drow forsaker at 20th will have like 41 SR or something like that. Is that a little cray, or is it just that cool since he doesn't have any magic items?
Also, some people were commenting on what should be fixed if the PrC were to be updated. Do you guys think the SR is appropriate? As far as I know it is the only SR every that has stacked. A drow forsaker at 20th will have like 41 SR or something like that. Is that a little cray, or is it just that cool since he doesn't have any magic items?
Crothian
First Post
the evil ones hunt down and kill users of magic but "good forsakers commit themselves to expunging evil sorcery from their world, but they too see themselves as examples of how mundane strngth can conquor foul enchantments."
I quote the good description since mor ethen not PCs are good. There is nothing in the flavor text that says they can not work with wizards and with people who choose to use magic.
I quote the good description since mor ethen not PCs are good. There is nothing in the flavor text that says they can not work with wizards and with people who choose to use magic.
Storyteller01
First Post
Crothian said:
Isn't attribute bonus +1 to an attribute of choice every level?
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Basically the problem was that the forsaker seemed like it was designed to screw with the party.
Lets consider some things that you cannot do without magic in D&D
1. Heal at a decent speed. The forsaker tried to address this and failed utterly - it got a maximum of something like 50 hp per day at level 10. I'm in a 12th level campaign, where full-blown heal spells (at 120hp) are routinely not enough to fully heal party members after a single fight. So - forsaker=loser on this front.
2. Rest over night. At high levels you throw up a magical construct to rest in over night, because frankly withdrawing is not going to be an option, and the average normal campsite is a great hassle. The forsaker has to sit outside all on his own.
3. Tell whether you are using a magic item. A forsaker has no way of telling magic from non-magic. If he uses a magical item for any reason, his class abilities go away. This basically means that unless he wants to risk his class abilities, a forsaker cannot carry any party treasure, because of the risk that it's something that one must merely carry to activate.
4. Fly, climb, jump, swim with any degree of effectiveness. Although this is more an artefact of how crappy physical skills in D&D are, the average forsaker will be totally stumped in many situations that a high-level party can simply breeze through.
5. Breathe underwater. Is there an underwater section in an adventure? Well forget about it. It's not for the forsaker. He simply cannot take part.
6. Survive in the average hostile environment. The forsaker cannot survive in the desert, in the cold without lots of cold weather gear or at high altitude. Even with a really good save, he's probably going to be seriously worn down by any of these situations. Forget about adventures inside a volcano or in the mountains or anything like that. The rest of the party can walk about with endure elements and resist fire. The forsaker just has to suck it up and blow his meagre healing on fixing it.
7. Eat. At high levels, parties simply don't carry food with them - they rely on heroes feast and mord's mansion to tide them over, with the possible addition of goodberry and create food/water. So a forsaker has to carry all of his food with him or starve - and he can't use any sort of magical holding device to do so, which is going to make things different.
8. Travel to other planes. Unless the party rely on the traditional "knock him out and throw him through the portal", the forsaker is out of any planar campaign.
9. Get resurrected after death. Which incidentally means that he's also a really bad person for the DM to hang a plot hook on. He's likely to be a front line fighter, with no access to healing and no coming back from the dead. That's really a bad thing for a DM who wants an ongoing campaign with memorable characters. This guy has redshirt written all over him.
10. Travel with the party. The guy can't teleport, shadow walk, air walk, wind walk, make use of phantom steeds etc etc. So the party have to wait for the guy.
"In a month the world will be destroyed by the BBEG"
"No problem, we teleport there and have a month to deal with stuff"
"Uh, guys?"
"Screw you buddy - we don't have the time to spend 3 weeks walking there because you have a problem with magic. This is the end of the world we're talking about"
And, of course, there'll be points where the forsaker cannot be rescued - how many times in the story hours do the heroes retreate with a well-timed group teleport? And there's the forsaker, left all alone, either because his spell resistance failed (er... succeeded), or he refused to come along at all.
11. Fight effectively. Every advantage that a forsaker gets is easily matched by another character by spending cash and using magic, and typically the amount of cash spent will be significantly less than their cash for that level.
12. Effectively resist magic. The forsaker gets SR (and good SR too), sure, but it's just not enough. Magic is sufficiently versatile that it will beat the forsaker every time, unless he's fighting a warmage or something (and even they have a lot of no-SR spells).
Add all that together with the "destroy magic items to get a class ability" and you've got mr popular himself.
In short - I can't imagine why a party of adventurers would burden themselves so.
Might I suggest the occult slayer or a spellthief with the mageslayer feat chain? Same general concept (uses little magic, resists magic effectively), but less mechanical restrictions (ie - you can still be an effective member of a party). You just need to throw in some flavour about why YOUR items are different to those of others. If you really want to divest yourself of all magical items, go with VoP.
Lets consider some things that you cannot do without magic in D&D
1. Heal at a decent speed. The forsaker tried to address this and failed utterly - it got a maximum of something like 50 hp per day at level 10. I'm in a 12th level campaign, where full-blown heal spells (at 120hp) are routinely not enough to fully heal party members after a single fight. So - forsaker=loser on this front.
2. Rest over night. At high levels you throw up a magical construct to rest in over night, because frankly withdrawing is not going to be an option, and the average normal campsite is a great hassle. The forsaker has to sit outside all on his own.
3. Tell whether you are using a magic item. A forsaker has no way of telling magic from non-magic. If he uses a magical item for any reason, his class abilities go away. This basically means that unless he wants to risk his class abilities, a forsaker cannot carry any party treasure, because of the risk that it's something that one must merely carry to activate.
4. Fly, climb, jump, swim with any degree of effectiveness. Although this is more an artefact of how crappy physical skills in D&D are, the average forsaker will be totally stumped in many situations that a high-level party can simply breeze through.
5. Breathe underwater. Is there an underwater section in an adventure? Well forget about it. It's not for the forsaker. He simply cannot take part.
6. Survive in the average hostile environment. The forsaker cannot survive in the desert, in the cold without lots of cold weather gear or at high altitude. Even with a really good save, he's probably going to be seriously worn down by any of these situations. Forget about adventures inside a volcano or in the mountains or anything like that. The rest of the party can walk about with endure elements and resist fire. The forsaker just has to suck it up and blow his meagre healing on fixing it.
7. Eat. At high levels, parties simply don't carry food with them - they rely on heroes feast and mord's mansion to tide them over, with the possible addition of goodberry and create food/water. So a forsaker has to carry all of his food with him or starve - and he can't use any sort of magical holding device to do so, which is going to make things different.
8. Travel to other planes. Unless the party rely on the traditional "knock him out and throw him through the portal", the forsaker is out of any planar campaign.
9. Get resurrected after death. Which incidentally means that he's also a really bad person for the DM to hang a plot hook on. He's likely to be a front line fighter, with no access to healing and no coming back from the dead. That's really a bad thing for a DM who wants an ongoing campaign with memorable characters. This guy has redshirt written all over him.
10. Travel with the party. The guy can't teleport, shadow walk, air walk, wind walk, make use of phantom steeds etc etc. So the party have to wait for the guy.
"In a month the world will be destroyed by the BBEG"
"No problem, we teleport there and have a month to deal with stuff"
"Uh, guys?"
"Screw you buddy - we don't have the time to spend 3 weeks walking there because you have a problem with magic. This is the end of the world we're talking about"
And, of course, there'll be points where the forsaker cannot be rescued - how many times in the story hours do the heroes retreate with a well-timed group teleport? And there's the forsaker, left all alone, either because his spell resistance failed (er... succeeded), or he refused to come along at all.
11. Fight effectively. Every advantage that a forsaker gets is easily matched by another character by spending cash and using magic, and typically the amount of cash spent will be significantly less than their cash for that level.
12. Effectively resist magic. The forsaker gets SR (and good SR too), sure, but it's just not enough. Magic is sufficiently versatile that it will beat the forsaker every time, unless he's fighting a warmage or something (and even they have a lot of no-SR spells).
Add all that together with the "destroy magic items to get a class ability" and you've got mr popular himself.
In short - I can't imagine why a party of adventurers would burden themselves so.
Might I suggest the occult slayer or a spellthief with the mageslayer feat chain? Same general concept (uses little magic, resists magic effectively), but less mechanical restrictions (ie - you can still be an effective member of a party). You just need to throw in some flavour about why YOUR items are different to those of others. If you really want to divest yourself of all magical items, go with VoP.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
No, it's about a fun team game. Team members not contributing anything but problems doesn't make for a fun team game.Crothian said:
Playing a forsaker basically says to the other players around the table "I don't care how you guys want to play the game - I want to play it my way, where most of the options of mid and high level play are thrown out and we're back to scratching in the dirt for enough food to eat"
Crothian
First Post
Saeviomagy said:
Over react much? Because the thought of someone playing a Forsaker but first mentioning it to the DM (who has to allow it) and to the other PCs obviously never crossed ytour mind. No one is claiming it fits into all parties and with all players. But the same can be said for every prestige class to one degree or another.
