What CAN'T you do with 4e?

[Voadam]

Cadfan, I generally agree with you. It is unfair, or just plain erroneous, to compare 4ed now to ALL of 3ed...I mean, of course 3ed has more, it has 8 years of publishing!

Unless you are comparing them for purposes of evaluating the games for purposes of playing/running a game now or this year and not 8 years in the future.

While many use a bunch of supplements to get what they want, comparing core 4e with core 3e is valid too, many people play with the core three and never buy, use, or allow another book for their games.

I know I've played in a number of recent games under different DMs where they limited PC options to core only.

 

[LostSoul]

It's an RPG. It "can do" anything. If I say my guy sunders the bad guy's sword, and the DM allows it, it happens.

It's not about what it can or can't do. It's about the experience of play and what sort of game experience you want.

 

[Voadam]

Why do Gloves of Strength have to increase an ability score?

Simulationist speaking, your _real_ strength doesn't change, right? You're not transformed into a stronger being, your muscles don't grow? Or do they?

I'm sorry, my amazon shipment arrived yesterday, I haven't looked at gloves of strength yet so I'm not aware of what they do or don't do in 4e.

What do gloves of strength do if they don't make you stronger while you wear them?

Gloves/gauntlets/and belts of strength are straight out of Norse Myths and made Thor stronger which he used in both feats of strength and beating on foes with blunt instruments.

Simulationist speaking I don't think D&D ever defined how the strength bonus manifested, whether the spell bulked you up like you were hulking out or just gave you magic superhero strength without changing your appearance. I always went with the latter but it is mostly an arbitrary flavor decision.

 

[Cadfan]

I'm sorry, my amazon shipment arrived yesterday, I haven't looked at gloves of strength yet so I'm not aware of what they do or don't do in 4e.

What do gloves of strength do if they don't make you stronger while you wear them?

They still make you stronger. They just don't do it by means of increasing your strength ability score. Instead, they make you stronger by providing bonuses on certain checks or damage rolls, ie, on the things that strength does.

Its a change from 3e that seems designed to minimize the "must have" nature of certain items. Now, for example, you don't hit more often when you wear gloves of strength. You also don't have to recalculate as many things if you take off your gloves. It means that a "gloves of strength" item is no longer mandatory for people who attack in melee using their strength score, but are instead useful for people who want to do things like pick up boulders. Its a nerfing, but thought went into it.

 

[ExploderWizard]

They still make you stronger. They just don't do it by means of increasing your strength ability score. Instead, they make you stronger by providing bonuses on certain checks or damage rolls, ie, on the things that strength does.

Its a change from 3e that seems designed to minimize the "must have" nature of certain items. Now, for example, you don't hit more often when you wear gloves of strength. You also don't have to recalculate as many things if you take off your gloves. It means that a "gloves of strength" item is no longer mandatory for people who attack in melee using their strength score, but are instead useful for people who want to do things like pick up boulders. Its a nerfing, but thought went into it.

If a character's STR score never added a melee "to hit" bonus(which would be fine) this works just great. Its the fact that natural STR does add this bonus while additional STR from magic does not. This is the type of "just because" that fits boardgame rules so well. In a roleplaying game this just slams its head against the nonsense wall.

 

[Lizard]

One recurring theme in all my campaigns is the EFN, or Evil Foreign Necromancer. This is the powerful evil wizard that creates and controls undead minions to fulfill his nefarious goals. I can't seem to figure out how to create this in the current edition. In 1e, 2e, and 3e it was quite easy.

Basically, you build him using the Wizard or Warlock or Cleric template in the DMG, stapled onto your race of choice, and then say all the undead stuff he does is "rituals". The players can't access these rituals, of course, nor do you need to actually write up what they, do what their limits are, what level they are, and so on. Just repeat the phrase "rituals" over and over in response to any "How'd he do dat?" question. If you want him to raise every skeleton in a 500 mile radius from the ground in a night, he did it with a ritual. The players can never find, use, or cast this ritual, of course.

(I'd also recommend tossing the Lich template onto him, so he becomes Elite, then using the Elite->Solo rules to make him really buff.)

If/when the PCs meet him in combat, use the standard class powers you picked above, but change most of the damage type to Necrotic if it isn't already. If you like, give him some cool powers which don't exist anywhere else in the game, which players can't learn and which aren't balanced for PCs, but which work fine for an NPC whose life expectancy is measured in rounds. Under no circumstances think "Hey, if he's had these powers for years, by now he could have..." or anything else of the sort. Likewise, do not ask "How did he rise from a mere novice to be the great power he is today? He has no low-level abilities." The necromancer has no past and no reality outside the final showdown with the PCs. He sprang into being when the encounter began and all of his abilities are focused on that one, final, fight. He does not need social skills to command his army, tactical skills to organize it, or any other mechanics which reflect his out of combat prowess. That's all handwaved away; his stat block is for Combat Purposes Only.

(Alternatively, you could face him as an opponent in a skill challenge, but then, he has no stats at all; the players roll against static DCs.)

 

[Lizard]

And here's a necromancer. The numbers are probably a bit off; I'm still adjusting my spreadsheet. Basically, started with a level 20 human, slammed the Wizard template on him, then the Lich template, then made him a Solo.

Evil Necromancer Lich (Human Wizard) Level 20 Solo Controller
Medium Undead Humanoid
Initiative +11 Senses: Perception 14, Darkvision
HP 870, Bloodied 435, Regeneration 10
Necromantic Aura 5 (take 5 necrotic damage)
AC 39, Fortitude 37, Reflex 37, Will 41
Resistances:Immune disease, poison
Saving Throws +2
Action Points 2
Speed 6

Melee Staff With Creepy Skull On End +25 vs. AC, 3d6+8 and ongoing 10 necrotic damage, save ends

Spells (with appropriate names)
Necrotic Flame (Scorching Burst) (AW)
Dust To Dust (Disintegrate) (D)
Wall Of Bones (Wall of Ice) (E)
Forlorn Encystment (Ice Tomb) (E)
Displacement (U)
Arcane Gate (U)

Spellmaster: Regain an expended encounter power, recharge
Necrotic Master: Can convert any damage to necrotic
Skills: Arcana +19, Religion +19
Rituals Known: Raise Undead Army
Strength 12 (+1/+11)
Constitution 14 (+2/+12)
Dexterity 12 (+1/+11)
Intelligence 19 (+4/+14)
Wisdom 18 (+4/+14)
Charisma 19 (+4/+14)

EDIT: Honestly, he'd be more fun just built from scratch, I think, using the class templates as a guideline but with purely unique abilities. 4e lets you do that; might as well get the most out of it.

 

[Mallus]

The players can't access these rituals, of course, nor do you need to actually write up what they, do what their limits are, what level they are, and so on.

Hey, as a DM and not a inveterate game designer, I prefer not to do extra work. Never create a rule or a system when a ruling or a loose set of guidelines will do.

If you want him to raise every skeleton in a 500 mile radius from the ground in a night, he did it with a ritual. The players can never find, use, or cast this ritual, of course.

1) Metagame response: so 4e is more like traditional D&D than 3e!

2) In-game response: sure you can learn to cast the undead army ritual. After 20 years of study. Just like the BBEG

note: I'm a huge fan of the 'villain bonus' from whatever edition Champions rule books I had.

 

[Lizard]

Hey, as a DM and not a inveterate game designer, I prefer not to do extra work. Never create a rule or a system when a ruling or a loose set of guidelines will do.

Ah, but I *am* an inveterate game designer. Look for "Lizard's Book Of Rituals", coming 10/1.

If the GSL is actually out by then...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Ah, but I *am* an inveterate game designer. Look for "Lizard's Book Of Rituals", coming 10/1.

If the GSL is actually out by then...

If the GSL is out by then,and you promise me high quality, interesting rituals that don't break the game, I might even buy that.

While your post where you describe how to create the monster comes off a bit.. negative? ridiculing? to me, I think you described things pretty well.

3E and 4E are not _that_ different in monster creation, either. There are lots of abilities you can't just get following normal rules (At-Will spells above 1st level, say, Fireball or Death Ward)?. You could always invent a special template or prestige class for stuff like that, but in the end, it's still just making stuff up to fit your ideas.

I disagree that the Ritual _has_ to be unaivalable to the PCs. There are a few things that could "balance" it:
- Unusual Focus (could be a stationary item)
- The monsters created are relatively weak compared to the PCs and their opposition. (A typical problem of 3E undead creation spells - most created useless undeads at the level they became available...)