What CAN'T you do with 4e?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If you want to avoid the immersion problem in regards to the "reduce hp to 0 either kills or disables, players choice", just say up front: Tell me what you want to achieve before you roll the attack and damage. It's a slight change of the rule, but it works just as well. (And maybe it's even more satisfying for everyone involved, since players have to plan for the idea to capture a foe. It can naturally also run in the "adversial DM" trap "You didn't see you wanted to knock him out this round! He's dead! Hahaha!", but that's less likely if you're up front about such changes)

For the other narrative aspects of 4E, take it literally:
All the cool combat stuff - it's sword magic. It doesn't just use the mechanics of magic, it is magic. That's why people can do their Split the Tree stunt only once per day. Their sword magic mumbo jumbo is expended.
Naturally, this requires you to have a setting that could accept "sword magic". I wouldn't find this too far-fetched, though - after all, there is nothing inherently believable about a human being able to best a dragon in melee combat. There is something special or supernatural about him, and maybe it is just his skill at sword magic. Your setting would look more like Earth Dawn then Warhammer this way...

Your biggest problem will probably occur in regards to hit points, though that doesn't involve much of a player choice taking you out of character. The DM can narrate the effects of any damage the player takes or deals, and only has to look out for it being consistent for the effects to avoid immersion problems.

---

Ultimiately, I don't care about these immersion problems.
My first role-playing game was Shadowrun 3E. IN that game, every character had a Karma Pool that gave you rerolls, extra dice and extra successes. It's an entirely metagame mechanic that has no meaning in-character. The character just knows he just made an impossible shot, narrowly escaped a dangerous situation, just happened to sweet-talk a cop this time, or found his new Ares Predator III faster then expected.

Later, I was introduced into D&D (3E). But I was also introduced to Torg (but it was already less played then). Torg had a similar meta-game mechanic as Shadowrun, but it was even more integrated in the system. Possibilities where used to improve rolls, negate damage and activate strange powers. A card deck could used to change the plot (Declare a Nemisis! Declare a Romance! Get an Idea!).

For me, such meta-game mechanics or "player vs character" things come naturally.

 

[Lanefan]

For me, such meta-game mechanics or "player vs character" things come naturally.

Where for me they are almost the antithesis of roleplaying a character in a fantasy world.

All the rules should be for is to define the general parameters of the game world, much like physics largely defines the rules of the real world. Thus, I can't jump over a building; and by much the same rationale, my Fighter can't either...yet the Wizard can, with suitable application of a Fly spell.

Once those general parameters are set, the less often the "game" gets in your face the better.

Lanefan

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Where for me they are almost the antithesis of roleplaying a character in a fantasy world.

All the rules should be for is to define the general parameters of the game world, much like physics largely defines the rules of the real world. Thus, I can't jump over a building; and by much the same rationale, my Fighter can't either...yet the Wizard can, with suitable application of a Fly spell.

Once those general parameters are set, the less often the "game" gets in your face the better.

Lanefan

Hmm. Maybe it is that I am indeed a little more interested in the story that is told then the immersion in the world. If you want to shape the story in a simulation, a lot can go wrong - oops, another 2 on my Fortitude Save vs Death - good bye, character-with-a-unresolved-prophecy. D&D loves to cheat in this regard, with all the raising-from-the-dead magic. In doing so, it allows a certain sense of immersion, but you can only immerse in the "bizarre" world of D&D, where you have to consider the implications of common resurrection magic.

It's not just the story, though. It's also the... "visual". Torg is a very good example. The rules basically allow you to generate all the awesome stuff in a pulp movie - Indiana Jones was one of the biggest influence whe we played Torg, and the rules worked perfectly to get that feel. Using Taunts to take out enemies, shooting 6 guys in a row with a single bullet. But also playing a superhero with super-speed, outrunning cars and beating enemies by plain outmaneuvering them. But it also supported the story. Cards could be played to add stuff to the story like "Mistaken Identity", "Romance" or "Connection".

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(snip)

As a simple example of this, imagine a pit trap where, when sprung, each player is given a choice to have his surprised character fall into the trap or not. For those who fall, the players are given an additional choice about the amount of damage that they would like to take. They are also given a choice about whether or not they would like to spontaneously heal twice the damage given. The trap is described as being in no way magical.

(snip)

I still don't have the 4E PHB (I will shortly.)
I must grin at the example you give above. 4E doesn't actually do that, does it?

In the games I was in, you found Pit Traps only if you searched for them, and were successful in finding them.
Otherwise, you found them - the hard way. No save. And you definitely did NOT get to choose how much damage you took at the bottom, what kind of damage it was ... or whether your character survived.
If your character died, you went and got a new character ... and a party Rogue to handle such dangers. Sadder but wiser.

Is this kind of situation now irrelevant, in 4E?

-

Spells kill or render unconscious on demand?
That means my Fireball can kill or merely render unconscious those 20 orcs? Hehe ... a lot of 1E/2E/3E wizards would love to have that variant spell (or, better yet, a Death Spell where it can be death or unconsciousness. )

However, I admit that I am puzzled by the 1st level teleportation ability. Everyone has that? Sorta reminds me of Exalted, where PCs are very powerful compared to D&D characters (My old 1st level characters wish they had that! Especially all the dead ones.) What is the reasoning behind this?

I guess this renders the Cat versus the Commoner (or 1st level character) argument null and void!

But yeah, I'm accustomed to the idea of 1st level characters being ... well, their situation makes the words 'powerless' and 'helpless' look like 'great and powerful' in comparison.
Now they have regenerate, and teleport, and other such abilities, even the fighters, at 1st level? And instantly back to full hit points from -9. (It's no fair. My old 1st level characters want a Do-Over session! )

 

[Ginnel]

A character with tumbling capabilities, who uses a light sword, fights in light or no armor, and has a substantial Armor Class. A mobile, lightly armored defender. The kind of person who can fence the bad guys up and down a winding staircase while his friends escape or attack someone else or whatever. Someone who can dive into a trio of guards and put them all on the ground.

Okay lets see the specifics then

Errol Flynn

"Daring do is my forte"

Human 1st level Rogue Swashbuckler

[SBLOCK]

Str 14
Con 14
Dex 16 (18 with stat boost)
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 13

Initiative = +4 Hp = 26/ Bloodied 13 Healing surges = 8

(human defence bonus +1 to fort ref and will defences included here)
AC = 16 (17 with light shield)
Fort = 13
Reflex = 17 (18 with light shield)
Will = 12

Skills:
Acrobatics 9
Athletics 7
Bluff 6
Insight 5
Stealth 9
Thievery 9
Streetwise 6

Feat:
Weapon Proficiency Rapier, (you become proficient with a rapier which is a +3 prof, 1D8 damage light blade)
Shield Proficiency (Light) Light shield is +1 AC and Reflex defense

Equipment

Rapier, Leather Armor.

Attacks (all attacks assume a rapier is used)
(Sneak attack damage +3D6 when you have combat advantage)

At Wills
Deft Strike
"Your deft footwork leads you forward into the strike"
Move 2 squares before the attack
target = 1 creature/ Attack = +7 Vs AC / Hit = 1D8 + 4 damage

Piercing Strike
"you find a chink in the enemies armor aiming your blow towards that point"
Target = 1 creature/ Attack = +7 Vs Reflex/ Hit = 1D8 + 4 damage

Riposte Strike
"You strike an enemy with a darting attack daring him to retaliate"
Target = 1 creature/ Attack = +7 Vs AC/ Hit = 1D8 + 4 damage
if target attacks you before your next turn take an immeadiate interupt action of Attack = +5 Vs AC/ Hit 1D8 +2 damage

Encounter

Positioning Strike
"A quick flourish of your blade and a shove positions the target right where you want it"
Target = 1 creature/ Attack = +7 Vs Will/ Hit = 1D8 + 4 damage plus slide the target one square

Daily

Easy Target
"A skillful blow leaves the enemy reeling setting him up for a viscous blow"
Target 1 creature/ Attack = +7 Vs AC/ Hit = 2D8 + 4 damage and target is slowed and gives combat advantage (save ends)
/ Miss target takes half damage and grants combat advantage till the end of your next turn.

[/sblock]

Ok thats a level one swash his attack is really quite nice he can do some lunging strikes and painful ones to manouver his enemies lets see what he comes out at level 11 then



Errol Flynn 11th level Rogue Swashbuckler/ Shadow assassin Duelist

If you want you can add +3 to all saves including AC and +3 to all attacks and all damage on attacks to take into account a magic +3 rapier which is justifiable at this level
[sblock]
Str 16
Con 16
Dex 21
Int 9
Wis 11
Cha 14

Initiative = +7 Hp = 76/ Bloodied 38 Healing surges = 11

AC = 22 (24 with a light shield) +1 when adjacent to a wall
Fort = 19
Reflex = 23 (25 with a light shield)
Will = 18

Skills:
Acrobatics 15
Athletics 15
Bluff 12
Insight 10
Stealth 15
Thievery 15
Streetwise 12

Feats:8 total
Weapon Proficiency Rapier = what it says on the tin
Shield Proficiency (Light) = what it says on the tin
Human perseverance = +1 feat bonus to saving throws
Durable = increase number of your healing surges by 2
Action surge = +3 bonus to attack rolls you make during any action you gained by spending an action point
Quick Draw = draw a weapon or object/potion stored in a pouch as part of the same action as you attack with it or use it +2 initiative
Shield Specialization = +1 feat bonus to AC and Reflex defense while using a shield
Back to the Wall +1 bonus whenever you are adjacent to a wall to melee attack rolls melee damage rolls and AC

Shadow Assassin Duelists abilities
Duelists Action: when you spend an action point you gain +4 to attack rolls until the start of your next turn.
Duelist's Riposte: any adjacent enemy that misses you with a melee attack takes damage equal to your dex mod (which is +5)

Attacks (all attacks assume a rapier is used)
(Sneak attack damage +3D6 when you have combat advantage)

At-Will attacks (same as 1st level Errol)
Attack +13(+5 Dex +5 Level + 3 weapon prof rapier)/ Hit 1D8 + 5 damage with additional effects for the at will power

Encounter
Bait and Switch, attack +13 Vs Will/ Hit 2D8 + 5 damage in addition switch places with target and shift one square

Sand in the eyes attack +13 Vs Reflex/ Hit 1D8 +5 damage also the target is blinded until end of your next turn

Killers Eye +13 Vs Reflex/ Hit 2D8 damage +5 increase damage to 3D8 +5 if the creature you target hasn't acted in the encounter yet.

Daily

Clever Riposte
"you concentrate a barrage of blows on your enemy"
+13 Vs AC/ Hit 2D8 + 5 damage, effect until end of the encounter target takes 5 damage each time it attacks you and you can shift as an immeadiate reaction after such an attack

Knockout
"A swift blow with your pommel takes the enemy out of the fight"
Target = 1creature/ attack +13 Vs Fortitude/ Hit 2D8 + 5 and target is knocked unconcious (save ends) any damage to the target removes this unconcious effect.

Utilities
Tumble
"you dodge and weave through your enemies deflecting blows as you go"
Encounter power/move action = shift 1/2 your speed

Ignoble escape
"You lose your foes and move to a more advantageous position"
Encounter power/move action = remove mark if you are marked and shift your speed

Certain Freedom
"A low blow or a nimble duck enables you to escape the foes grapple"
Daily/Move action = automatically suceed on acrobatic check to escape grab or restraints.
[/sblock]

The powers let him run about with impunity and his powers can strike any defence, next to a wall he becomes even meaner with +1 to melee attack and dam and AC. This Rogue could stand at the front of party with this AC taking the fighters role and holding the line also he would be quite happy running about to get his sneak attack. His saves are also pretty good.

Swashbuckler AC 24 = base 10, 2 leather, 5 dex 5 half level, 1 light shield, 1 shield specialization

Paladin in plate AC 26 = base 10, 8 plate, 5 half level, 2 heavy shield, 1 either plate or shield specialization (shield and plate specialization doesn't stack)

of course the swash could take hide for 25 AC and the paladin or fighter could be in scale for one less AC, so your pretty much top of your class for this.

 

[Lizard]

That means my Fireball can kill or merely render unconscious those 20 orcs? Hehe ... a lot of 1E/2E/3E wizards would love to have that variant spell (or, better yet, a Death Spell where it can be death or unconsciousness. )

Well, look at it this way. For (most) NPCs, there's no negative hit points anymore. When you fireball those orcs, they're crispy critters, but one of them...say, the one you want to interrogate...is at -9 and stabilized when you check them out. The rest are dead.

I'm pretty much in the simulationist camp, but, unless the players tell me "We're trying to take them alive", or unless I have plans for them, I more or less 'kill' monsters at 0 hit points in 3x. Just like in Champions, where you're encouraged to not take Recoveries for villains knocked to 0 stun. Otherwise, every round, half the VIPER minions you knocked down get back up, and that's annoying.

 

[xechnao]

Well, look at it this way. For (most) NPCs, there's no negative hit points anymore. When you fireball those orcs, they're crispy critters, but one of them...say, the one you want to interrogate...is at -9 and stabilized when you check them out. The rest are dead.

I'm pretty much in the simulationist camp, but, unless the players tell me "We're trying to take them alive", or unless I have plans for them, I more or less 'kill' monsters at 0 hit points in 3x. Just like in Champions, where you're encouraged to not take Recoveries for villains knocked to 0 stun. Otherwise, every round, half the VIPER minions you knocked down get back up, and that's annoying.

Use a "battlemeter". It measures the relative advantage of each side. If comes a point than the PCs clearly have the advantage just make a roll to see what happens:
Dice will tell you about eventual PC resources spent to win the battle-prioritize them though.

If PCs and Monsters are both in a similar crippled state then I suggest you allow monsters their full saves and defenses. Even if they keep on standing and standing.

 

[Lizard]

Use a "battlemeter". It measures the relative advantage of each side. If comes a point than the PCs clearly have the advantage just make a roll to see what happens:
Dice will tell you about eventual PC resources spent to win the battle-prioritize them though.

If PCs and Monsters are both in a similar crippled state then I suggest you allow monsters their full saves and defenses. Even if they keep on standing and standing.

Are you saying that, honestly, in actual play, you track negative hit points and make stabilization checks for every enemy, and make PCs go around slittling throats to mop up after a battle?

 

[BryonD]

Honest answer: I can't think of a single roleplaying game I've ever played or run where I didn't have to do this.

It's just something you don't notice you do, most of the time. Converting attack -> damage -> description in any RPG, for example. We've internalized it so we don't think about it, but it's the same thing, I think.

4E has by design gone out of its way to increase the amount of this required. I'm sorry, but if that is truly an honest question, then I don't think it is a very well thought through question. Because the exact same thing could be said of Descent.

Just because there is no Holy Grail perfect simulation roleplaying game out does not mean that increasing the level of forcing the story to comply to the mechanical limitations is acceptable. I never claimed 3E was free of it. But for my expectations the amount of it is quite acceptable in 3E and far beyond acceptable in 4E.

Question (and I ask this not to try to trap you in some kind of silly debate fallacy, I'm interested in your opinion): If the rules worked the way they did, and offered some explanation for how that should be imagined in the game world, would you have a different response?

No.

 

[xechnao]

Are you saying that, honestly, in actual play, you track negative hit points and make stabilization checks for every enemy, and make PCs go around slittling throats to mop up after a battle?

No. I am saying that if PCs come to have the net hand of the battle I do not. I do not bother with combat at all from this point. Just roll an event dice that deals with resources spent on PCs part. And this only in combats where no strategic points are involved.

If PCs are on an equal state with monsters though I tend to give monsters all the chances they can have. If there is somebody around for example that can heal a fallen monster then I have to track these conditions. When it is helpless, no of course not. Of course I do not let PCs to know exactly how many HPs each monster has or things like that except for giving clues of their state - if there is a ranger in the pc party the clues are even more specific and accurate (range of HPs the monster may have and the like).