What CR should a god be?

[Fieari]

A guy on the forums going by "Upper_Krust" is writting a book called "The Immortals Handbook" which more clearly defines dieties in terms of abilities, stats, etc. It also scales upwards indefinatly, going all the way up to "Supreme Being" levels.

Most gods do have a CR by his system. That CR is quantifiable, but still such that no mortal could reasonably face one.

Unfortunetly, it isn't... er... published yet. But he promises soon... that the text is basically all done, and it's just editing now.

The reason I like this system better is that you can work out God vs God combat... but beyond that, you can run a game where the players are gods. Which might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I for one will enjoy it greatly.

 

[Saeviomagy]

In plenty of mythologies, mortals have challenged and often beaten gods. Usually the gods got all petty and that and cursed the mortal afterward, but it happened.

We're not talking about beings of ultimate power here - we're talking about beings of power that far exceeds that of normal mortals. And D&D characters are far from being normal mortals, and epic D&D characters are far above even that.

So to me having D&D characters fight the gods would certainly be a climax to the campaign. Putting dieties as high level BBEG's isn't a totally silly idea.

Not necessarily THE climax either. I can easily see campaigns where the PC's have to deal with the destruction of a god, even IF they deserved it. Other gods just don't have the time to fill in on someone else's portfolio.

And if you beat an overgod (for whatever reason)? I don't know - certainly part of it would be that you simply have no idea what's going to happen after that. Reboot of the universe? Some sort of power struggle? Discovery that the overgod has a boss himself?

The only real problem I have with dieties and demigods is that the stats are useless for creating any such campaign.

 

[Wombat]

I think any god should have CR *insert infinity symbol* when dealing with mortals. It's a GOD. As in "I don't like you, so you explode like a blood sausage. I control reality and you are real, so boom, you die." The Overgod doesn't have a CR, never should have one. A mortal going against, Ao for example, would be like a dust mite going up against a gigantic super-enormous deadly thing of death + a billion. But that's just me. And honestly, they shouldn't get an opportunity to fight gods to begin with, since once a god with it's omniscience etc. etc. discovers that this dude might be a potential threat, that dude is going to experience a good hard smiting.

I'm willing to accept that infinity symbol for gods

In many ways the best discussion of gods-vs.-mortals that I ever ran across was in the very old WotC supplement Primal Order.

 

[Nifft]

Gods are CR 1/4.

As in, if your DM lets you kill them, you should not enjoy any benefit beyond your mental stroking.

Unless "God" means something else in your native language.

-- N

 

[Dogbrain]

IMCs, deities are not merely reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellly big monsters. Their status comes from being tied to something beyond any individual person/thing/existence. To kill the god of a city, you must destroy that city. To kill a god of storms, you must either destroy storms or replace that god of storms, somehow. The easiest way to do the latter is to found an empire with a different god of storms and then completely replace worship of the first god of storms with your god of storms. However, this can be problematic, since the nature of gods is such that in the process, the enemy god of storms could end up merging with your god of storms, meaning that to destroy the enemy god of storms you would have to destroy your own god of storms. One could in theory enter the ancient myths (rather difficult to do) and change them--but this can have unforseen repercussions. What if that particular god's second bastard son's third daughter was responsible for founding your PC's native city? You've just rewrote the myths--this second bastard son could never have existed in the first place. No PC's native city, no PC. Ooops.

 

[Falconnan]

Asking a loaded question . . .

Okay. Everyone is saying gods are omnipotent and omniscient in the game. This would mean that they are all all powerful, all knowing, and all seeing. No.
Two omnipotent beings cannot share power, or they are by definition not omnipotent. So, what are the gods in D&D?

They are ideals given form and identity. Overgods? They keep these ideals in check.
CR is a hard thing to call. I agree that demipowers and avatars are about all a mortal PC should be able to harm seriously, or kill; at least under normal circumstances.

In general, I give them a CR= HDx2 + DvRx4. This looks rediculous, but when you figure in the salient divine powers, the innate spell-like and supernatural abilities, immortality, and the like, it begins to make sense.

For demipowers, avatars, and hero-deities. A Lesser God or more is unlikely to fear direct assault by any character less than 40th level. Also, my gods have more HD and class levels.

Just remember, the Judeo-Christian view of God as omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent is inconsistent with a pantheon.

 

[Dogbrain]

Okay. Everyone is saying gods are omnipotent and omniscient in the game.

Not me.

Two omnipotent beings cannot share power, or they are by definition not omnipotent. So, what are the gods in D&D?

Really complicated, not actually independent of their place in the world and cosmology.

 

[Dogbrain]

For demipowers, avatars, and hero-deities. A Lesser God or more is unlikely to fear direct assault by any character less than 40th level. Also, my gods have more HD and class levels.

Avatars are simply tools. One can in theory break any tool without destroying the craftsman. To destroy most servitors is also not killing a god. These beings do not occupy a "place" in the same way a deity does IMCs. Hero-deities would have reached the point that one must destroy their religion to be able to destroy them, but it would be easier than destroying the religion of a major deity. The progression for destroying a hero-deity, IMCs, would be to first destroy its religious base. This severs its "tie to reality", making it another ephemeral being. Then one has to go after the "husk", which would still be one tough individual.

 

[Shemeska]

Gotta be kidding me...

Nope, I don't consider the powers in my games to be perfect. But compared to a mortal, you aren't on the same page as them. No chance outside of the most singularly bizarre and contrived examples might a mortal have the chance and the ability to fight a true deity, let alone kill one.

You want to kill a deity, then become one yourself. I suspect your priorities and scope of view will alter once that happens.

'Kill Thor and steal his loot', and things along those lines, is something that will get a person laughed at openly in any game of mine. In my opinion, it's the defining act of munchkinism.

That said, any encounter with the divine, by way of an avatar, or even a proxy is a rare occurance in my games. When it happens, it's special and it doesn't cheapen the experience of encountering a truly divine entity. Treating gods as just another high CR encounter does just that, it cheapens the experience for all involved in the game.

I also treat Archfiends as unique beings on a different playing field from most mortals. They're not neccessarily more or less powerful than true deities, but they're different... different objectives, different reason for existence (same with the arch celetials). They personify some aspect of a raw alignment, not an idea, a portfolio, etc. They're more raw than deities, much closer to the elements of the plane they inhabit, not defined by some deific portfolio, etc. I treat them nearly as different in scope to gods as I do gods and mortals. Mortals are more likely to interact with an archfiend, but almost as likely to be squashed like a bug if you treat them as some CR X monster that sits in a 10'x10' room with phat lewt to steal and XP to earn.

I don't tend to do hack and slash style games, so perhaps my viewpoint is different on these things. My story hour will eventually progress to all of this anyways.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Azatoth is listed with CR 50. Of course, that's probably just His avatar when summoned to Earth.

Kill his true form somehow, and you kill a fundamental aspect of reality...