What CR should a god be?

[Nifft]

Okay. Everyone is saying gods are omnipotent and omniscient in the game. This would mean that they are all all powerful, all knowing, and all seeing.

Nope, more that, as the DM, they're not things that I would allow my PCs to face and defeat in mortal combat. Pun intended.

As the DM, of course, I am the only "all powerful, all knowing, and all seeing" guy around.

The nature of Divinity is not explained to the PCs. They receive conflicting reports of the Divine Truth. They're mortals, though -- what mortal can really hope to understand such matters?

-- N

 

[Falconnan]

Consider that the partial formula I just shared, combined with the increase in levels, results in immensely powerful gods. Generally, a CR at or above 100. If a party can handle a creature of that kind of CR, the experience is not cheap. The PC's are just seriously big and bad, and may be in line for divine ascension themselves (a trick I have never adjudicated yet).

No experience that is hard enough to pull off can be cheapened. Knowing that it could happen is like buying a lottery ticket. You can't win if you don't play, but playing is so far from being likely to win, you might as well not play.

Between epic level magic, divine dirty laundry, things like the "last word" from Dead Gods, and similar, the death of a god might be accomplished by some very seriously prepared, determined, focused, and nigh unto maximum possible powered PC's. Then again, they are still more likely to die, as said god is likely to very quickly spot the hole(s) in their plan.

Also, killing off every last worshipper is not enough. You also have to kill off every person who fears this god, or habitually says their name. This would mean a paladin could not likely ever go after Bane in FRCS. Then again, unlikely is the key word either way.

If the PC's can't one day threaten their divine enemies, why continue to adventure past a certain point? They likely would retire. Also, if the PC's can't ever maybe even possibly defeat (notice I didn't say kill) a god, don't use Deities and Demigods-It is for the campaign where PC's at least have the chance.

Overgods-eh. Might be worth statting for intellectual purposes, but otherwise, why bother?

 

[Sejs]

I'm another one in the "Gods = CR:No" camp. A god isn't just a big monster, a god is a fundamental extension of a thing or concept. The god of war isn't just some tall chick in armor, she -is- the embodiment of war, conquest and conflict. Trying to kill her in a fight would be like trying to put out the sun with a match. It'd be like trying to drown the ocean with a glass of water.

 

[Creamsteak]

I would put a typical Dungeons and Dragons gods CR at 25 to 40. Higher gods like Ao in FR would be between 40 and 60 at best. I would stat them out myself to make sure they took advantage of everything I could with them, give them at least 20 levels in a spellcasting class, and give them at least a +20 bonus to every ability score in the game.

I think that the Gods in a Dungeons and Dragons game are not meant to be "all powerful", "omnicient", or so vastly greater than mortals that none can ever rival them. In Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and Birthright, mortals have become gods. In Dark Sun, I would say that the Dragon Kings are very close to gaining the power to become gods, and combined all 7 would be a match for most any deity. I think that believing that these powers that be are able to instantaneously make any mortal explode into a "blood meat sausage" is unfitting for any setting where the players are capable of interacting directly with a deity.

Of course, this comes from a personal stigma the same way that many of the above posters believe their gods have absolute power compared to mortals. My stigma is that there must always be a chance that any power in my games can be overcome. I want it to be within the realm of possibility that heroes can overcome anything, and the villains can do the same. Some things shouldn't be easy, some things should be so hard that they seem impossible, but there should always be that chance.

If all your gods are so powerful they can instantly end a threatening mortals life, what do the other gods do about that in your games? Does another deity stand up and stop this action? Whether a neutral deity protecting balance, a rival deity protecting his chance to win, a god protecting his worshippers, or a manipulator playing his cards, I just don't think that the gods should be able to act so freely without reprisal. I think that this is what holds them back, because there power MUST be finite or they could not coexist, there must be something to hold them back.

 

[Falconnan]

If all your gods are so powerful they can instantly end a threatening mortals life, what do the other gods do about that in your games? Does another deity stand up and stop this action? Whether a neutral deity protecting balance, a rival deity protecting his chance to win, a god protecting his worshippers, or a manipulator playing his cards, I just don't think that the gods should be able to act so freely without reprisal. I think that this is what holds them back, because there power MUST be finite or they could not coexist, there must be something to hold them back.

(Monks chanting in Latin in the background of a huge, medieval cathedral)

Amen, Creamsteak.


Did I just agree with a guy named "Creamsteak"?

Oy!

 

[FireLance]

Before you get around to calculating the CR of gods, you should think about the gap between the mortal and the divine in your setting. Is it insurmountable? If so, the CR is probably close enough to infinity that it makes no difference. Do the greatest mortal heroes rival the gods in power? Then the CR of a god is probably close to the character level of the most powerful hero who ever lived (this is also campaign-specific).

Some DMs like the idea that the gods are capable of wiping out any mortal with a single thought because this emphasizes the gap between mortals and divine beings. You don't have to go that way if you don't want to. For example, in the hodgepodge of religions, philosophies and beliefs that make up the Chinese mythology, the gap between the mortal and the divine is quite narrow. Many gods have mortal origins and were originally great philosophers and folk heroes. Of course, it could be argued that these mortal heroes only "achieve immortality" and do not actually become gods per se. Either way, the point is that the gods in your setting are only as powerful as you want and need them to be. If you want your PCs to fight the gods eventually, pick the point it should happen and stat them out accordingly. If you don't, they will forever be out of reach, even if the PCs become 100th-level Epic characters.

 

[dcollins]

But in mythology, haven't some mortals risen to the power levels of gods and kicked some godly butt?

Didn't Hercules do something like this? I'm not sure.

So maybe power levels for gods isn't such a silly idea?

Absolutely. In practically every real-world pantheistic mythology, gods are ultimately not immortal, they are not above pettiness, they can be hurt and even killed by moprtals. The idea that a god is "above all that" and cannot be killed is a fairly modern idea. I'm in the (minority) camp that thinks that at some point gods with statistics that epic characters can fight is great, in-flavor D&D fodder.

More on my website here: www.superdan.net/dndmisc/avatars.html

I don't have Deities & Demigods, but I do have WOTC's Faiths & Pantheons book here. On p. 11 it discusses divine encounters & XP, and basically refuses to assign a CR to deities. It recommends thwarting a deities' plans as an award og around the party's level to 3 levels higher; for outright killing a deity it recommends one full level of XP, i.e., level x 1000 xp for each PC.

I'm not sure exactly how divine ranks should compute into "deity CRs", but per page 7, "Most deities are 20 HD outsiders with 30 to 50 character levels as well," i.e., 50 to 70 total Hit Dice.

 

[Creamsteak]

Did I just agree with a guy named "Creamsteak"?

Oy!

Aside:

Hey, it's not "THAT" bad. I came up with it in 1992 when I visited the Red Dragon chat communities on AOL. I've stuck with it ever since. You might be surprised with how often sticking with one unique nickname helps you find people that you've been gaming with for years.

 

[Falconnan]

Aside:

Hey, it's not "THAT" bad.

Hadn't thought of that. Guess when you try to avoid people you knew 10-12 years ago . . .

But "Creamsteak"? Different strokes . . .

Just playin'.

Has anyone actually statted out the higher level gods, say Ao, or Asmodeus (assuming he actually helped create the multiverse)?

 

[Yair]

With the D&D rules of divine ranks, deities definitely should have a CR. They are creatures with clear statistics and powers, which makes them quite powerful but still finitely so. Epic level characters, with their infinite potential, could rise to sufficiently high levels to challenge them.

That said, I don't think that is a good model to represent deities, doe the typical campaign. For example, in a recent campaign I considered Mystra in FR (the goddess of magic) to be the (impossible) sameness connecting the fundumental dichotomy (what is and what is not something; Selune and Shar). The D&D stats don't really relate.

For a "standard" campaign, I think gods should not be physical entities at all, and so the deities and demigods rules should not be used. Which is why I find those rules so lacking (I've got Faiths and Pantheons, but it's the same deal). They still have merits (like the "can use any cat as a familiar", or the strict limits on what the god is aware of and/or can forsee; such things can apply regardless of bodies).
For Epic-Level campaigns, if the gods and divinity rules in Deities & Demigods are used as-is, I don't see why the characters could not eclipse the gods, and I verntainly don't see why the gods should not have a CR.