What CR should a god be?

[dcollins]

Examples, please. Only those from actual mythology, none from modern novelizations, none that involve a character who is not truly mortal. Hercules was not truly mortal. His father was Zeus--and even then it was made plain that his mortal part had to go to Hades.

Hence the link.

 

[S'mon]

Another mortal who contested with a deity and won: Jacob. Won a wrestling match with the omnipotent Yahweh.

Heh heh, my favourite bit of the whole Old Testament!

AIR Jahweh did win in the end though - after several hours of stalemate he cheated by kicking Jacob in the back of the leg/ankle, thus overbearing Jacob and winning the match. BTW my wife tells me that some Christian fundamentalists prefer to say it was 'really' only Michael the Archangel that Jacob that Jacob was wrestling, not Jehovah, thus keeping Jehovah's omnipotence safely intact for the modern reader.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Umbran mate!

I didn't say, "all gods have created worlds".

I thought you implied it though, you continue to do so in this next quote...

Merely that that's the general type of being and power level involved. The fact that many haven't take then "Create Wondrous Planet" item creation feat doesn't mean they aren't of the same general power level, at least as far as humans are concerned.

Well the problem with this approach is that if you can create a planet you can certainly destroy a planet, and as I mentioned before there are few gods in myth with that kind of power.

What the players want is important, but so is what I want. I don't want to run a campaign with large tracts of it are anticlimatic afterthoughts. It offends my sense of story structure.

Well I certainly don't want to 'tell you your business' however, in the years when S'mon DMed our immortal campaign there was never any sense that we had to 'top' the last adventure.

I think this was partly due to the fact that we roleplayed through the spectrum of levels. In that one day your deity would be fighting Mephistopheles, the next, you are roleplaying one of your clerics gets into trouble with some evil cultists, after that one of your devas would be on a mission in the Astral plane fighting Githyanki and so forth.

This is definately one of the major boons of immortal gaming in that its not just all about the gods, its about the worshippers, its about the servants. So any monotony is avoided.

One day your pantheon might save the planet from being eaten by an alien intelligence, the next you might be roleplaying a low level cleric (and companions) on a mission into the town sewers to rescue kidnapped children.

But the crux of it is, 'its all relevant'. Deeds, both big and small, add up...when using the worship points system that is.

I like to equate divinity to the military in that you have the ground forces (mortal worshippers); air force (high/epic-level followers and servants, basically a strike team) and nuclear force (the deity itself).

Immortal gaming doesn't narrow the parameters for your campaign, it removes them altogether. You can take any adventure, from 1st level to 100th-level and weave it into the whole.

It is not having to always top - it is ending the story while it is still good, rather than "jumping the shark". For a story to remaing truly living, you must be able to reach new heights of drama and tension. After you've hit the top, there's nowhere else to go. All other dramatic elements in that character's story will either pale by comparison, or be repetetive. So, why bother?

Roleplaying is, by its very nature, open ended, more akin to an ongoing television show than a movie trilogy.

Its one thing if players want to retire a character, but its another to force a retirement.

If I want to do immortal gaming, I won't use D&D (or likely even d20), as the system for it. There are far better tools out there for such jobs.

I would agree that d20 is not perfect from a mechanical point of view.

However, d20 is perfect from a philosophical point of view. If you just switch to another system for immortal gaming you lose the dichotomy between the mortal and the immortal. Whereas if you continue to use d20 you have built up that sense of what it means to be mortal. You then better appreciate what it means to be immortal.

Its not just about roleplaying 50th-level characters that eat Balors for breakfast (though thats always there if you feel hungry), its about making a difference, its about taking responsibility, its about asking what would you do if you were god.

 

[S'mon]

Oh, to answer the original question, I think Avatars if used should be around CR 16-20, the weakest typical godlings (quasi & hero-deties) around CR 25 or so, and weak demigods starting around CR 30. Of course you can be far more powerful than that; Vainamoinen would be a hero-deity of CR 40+, but I think few 'true' gods should be under CR 21, anything less can be classified as a 'spirit' or 'little god'; things like dryads, centaurs, selkie, elementals, nereids, pixies, fossergrim etc.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

Oh, to answer the original question, I think Avatars if used should be around CR 16-20, the weakest typical godlings (quasi & hero-deties) around CR 25 or so, and weak demigods starting around CR 30.

I think Avatars should be roughly akin to Solars (in 3rd Ed. that is). In around CR 20-30 (by WotC reckoning that is. )

In fact I certainly see Solars being used as surrogate Avatars by generic Pantheons who do not necessarily placate the use of Avatars.

The Norse would presumably use Valkyries in place of Avatars, the Finnish would use the valkyrie-like Air Maidens. The Greek gods may use Titans (3.5 Monster Manual version). Other pantheons may use Dragons (Chinese?) and so forth.

Of course you can be far more powerful than that; Vainamoinen would be a hero-deity of CR 40+, but I think few 'true' gods should be under CR 21, anything less can be classified as a 'spirit' or 'little god'; things like dryads, centaurs, selkie, elementals, nereids, pixies, fossergrim etc.

Well of course there would be technically no upper limit for deities of a given rank.

 

[S'mon]

I think Avatars should be roughly akin to Solars (in 3rd Ed. that is). In around CR 20-30 (by WotC reckoning that is. )

In 3.5?

One function for Avatars IMC is to have entities summonable by the Planar Ally spells, which necessarily limits their hit dice & power to the CR 16-20 range. If you're going to Gate you might as well go for the Big Kahuna.

 

[diaglo]

So what CR should a god be?

i make all CR for all deities = to infinity

 

[Umbran]

Well the problem with this approach is that if you can create a planet you can certainly destroy a planet...

I don't consider this at all true. Every being short of an Omnipotent and Omniscient monotheistic deity has some limitations.

Well I certainly don't want to 'tell you your business' however, in the years when S'mon DMed our immortal campaign there was never any sense that we had to 'top' the last adventure.

That's very nice for you. I'm glad you had a good time. I don't think I would have.

I think this was partly due to the fact that we roleplayed through the spectrum of levels. In that one day your deity would be fighting Mephistopheles, the next, you are roleplaying one of your clerics gets into trouble with some evil cultists, after that one of your devas would be on a mission in the Astral plane fighting Githyanki and so forth.

Blech. One man's boon is another's bane, I suppose. These days I'm not interested in jumping about from character to character. If I'm going to devote time and effort to a full-fleged campaign, I'd prefer to focus more tightly. I get little enough gaming time that I have a hard time getting sufficient depth of role-playing and character and story development for my tastes out of one character, much less out of three or a half-dozen.

Immortal gaming doesn't narrow the parameters for your campaign, it removes them altogether. You can take any adventure, from 1st level to 100th-level and weave it into the whole.

I don't want my parameters removed. Being free has it's benefits, yes. But being mildly restricted leads to greater creativity, ime.

Its one thing if players want to retire a character, but its another to force a retirement.

It's one thing to feel a little sad when the DM decides the story has reached it's end for your characters. But it's another to force the GM to continue running the game when he doesn't want to.

The whole coooperative thing runs both ways. It isn't all the GM doing everything for only the player's benefit, youknow. I'm running the game for my own amusement, too. If I'm no longer amused, the game is over.

 

[S'mon]

That's very nice for you. I'm glad you had a good time. I don't think I would have.

Feeling's mutual, oh Evil One.

We certainly had more time back then, in high school & University/college. U_K is right that there was not a perceived need to constantly 'top' the previous challenge; in 1e the power gradient tapers off anyway, a 100th level deity wasn't so much more powerful than an 80th level one, and mortal foes remained a threat at all levels, from Oleg Gadinsky with his H&K CAWS and hand grenades to Orlok the Scarlet Brotherhood assassin and his Vorpal Axe of Imperial Suel. The biggest challenges were often political rather than physical; aligning the agendas of allied and rival divinities to enable the PC deity to take action becomes increasingly difficult as the web of divine politics grows ever deeper at higher levels; by now Thrin is almost totally prevented from acting against most of his remaining enemies - the Ward-Pact with Graz'zt is ratified by the Norns and effectively unbreakable, Hel is a part of his Pantheon and untouchable before Ragnarok, Ksarul appears allied with Thrin's pantheon-head Odin in backing Overking Tarkane's expansion of the Overkingdom. Thrin can act freely against the Mabden Sword Gods if he chooses (Mabelode, Xiombarg & Arioch) but they are both powerful and distant, not yet active on the primary campaign world, Thrin's original plane.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

In 3.5?

Yes.

One function for Avatars IMC is to have entities summonable by the Planar Ally spells, which necessarily limits their hit dice & power to the CR 16-20 range.

It does seem to cheapen Avatars somewhat though.

If you're going to Gate you might as well go for the Big Kahuna.

Any party having to face a 3rd Ed. deity is in for a very rude awakening.