What CR should a god be?

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Umbran matey!

I don't consider this at all true. Every being short of an Omnipotent and Omniscient monotheistic deity has some limitations.

Exactly, but by giving them all

That's very nice for you. I'm glad you had a good time. I don't think I would have.

Blech. One man's boon is another's bane, I suppose. These days I'm not interested in jumping about from character to character.

...variety is the spice of life.

If I'm going to devote time and effort to a full-fleged campaign, I'd prefer to focus more tightly. I get little enough gaming time that I have a hard time getting sufficient depth of role-playing and character and story development for my tastes out of one character, much less out of three or a half-dozen.

I always saw the role of such lesser characters as an extension of the deity itself, so this was never a problem.

I don't want my parameters removed. Being free has it's benefits, yes. But being mildly restricted leads to greater creativity, ime.

Again, this idea seems anathema to how I found things played out. The disparity of scale brought greater focus to how I roleplayed the character. This diversity better developed the character, since (surely) what defines a character is how they react to different situations.

It's one thing to feel a little sad when the DM decides the story has reached it's end for your characters. But it's another to force the GM to continue running the game when he doesn't want to.

I agree, and would never suggest such.

Though again, the diversity of the immortal campaign practically allows you to try myriad campaign styles at once. So if the DM didn't want to run an epic level adventure this month they could run a low level adventure, but still maintain overall campaign integrity.

I guess, it varies from campaign to campaign. But its sort of surprising how well everything worked in our campaign.

The whole coooperative thing runs both ways. It isn't all the GM doing everything for only the player's benefit, youknow. I'm running the game for my own amusement, too. If I'm no longer amused, the game is over.

Obviously thats an issue for individual campaigns though.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

We certainly had more time back then, in high school & University/college. U_K is right that there was not a perceived need to constantly 'top' the previous challenge; in 1e the power gradient tapers off anyway, a 100th level deity wasn't so much more powerful than an 80th level one, and mortal foes remained a threat at all levels, from Oleg Gadinsky with his H&K CAWS and hand grenades to Orlok the Scarlet Brotherhood assassin and his Vorpal Axe of Imperial Suel.

Its actually amazing how dangerous those pesky mortals were 'way back when'. Of course the flip side of 1st Ed. was that the fights between deities lasted about 2 rounds at most. In 3rd Ed. battles between deities are likely to be more akin to the battles of myth and legend.

The biggest challenges were often political rather than physical; aligning the agendas of allied and rival divinities to enable the PC deity to take action becomes increasingly difficult as the web of divine politics grows ever deeper at higher levels; by now Thrin is almost totally prevented from acting against most of his remaining enemies - the Ward-Pact with Graz'zt is ratified by the Norns and effectively unbreakable, Hel is a part of his Pantheon and untouchable before Ragnarok, Ksarul appears allied with Thrin's pantheon-head Odin in backing Overking Tarkane's expansion of the Overkingdom. Thrin can act freely against the Mabden Sword Gods if he chooses (Mabelode, Xiombarg & Arioch) but they are both powerful and distant, not yet active on the primary campaign world, Thrin's original plane.

Yet somehow there still always seems lots to do: aid Mephisto conquer the Nine Hells and dethrone Asmodeus, defeat the Midgard Linnorm and free up the trade routes, get the Eldren Star Destroyer operational, visit the Isle of the Elder Ones, survive being in the presence of Doomstar, somehow set Graz'zt and Mabelode to war against each other, invade the Chaos wastes, defeat the Mongali Ancestral Spirits. Thats all off the top of my head.

 

[Angcuru]

Consider yourself sig'd, my pointy-eared friend.

Aw....I've always wanted to be sig'd.

I like Upper_Krust's idea of how to stat out gods if that's what you like to do IYC, but I can say out of experience that playing as a god is fun at first, but quickly turns into a Hana Barbera cartoon.

New Guy : "Wow, leet godly powers! Awesome!"

'Veteran' : "HAHA! But not so awesomely powerful as mine!"

'Elite' : "Mine are better!"

'Elite' 2 : "Are not!"

E1 : Are too!

E2 : No way!

E1 - I use my leet god power of Reality Bending to stop you!

E2 - I use a combo of Reality Bending and Time/Space Bending to warp your powers so that you actually harm yourself instead of me! HAHA!

E1 - Egad! I am stop-ped! But NO! I use my Mind Bending powers so that those other losers over there (In reference the Veteran and the new guy) side with me to defeat you haha!

and on, and on, and on......

 

[mercucio]

Realistically?!? With characters using magic, traveling other planes, battling fiends and wrestling dragons, I really can't see the big difference in realism between fighting a God and fighting an avatar...

Fighting an avatar is obviously easier, but if you allow for the possibility that PCs can become powerful enough to defeat Hextors avatar then why shouldn't they one day become powerful enough to beat Hextor himself?
...

Realistically being more alongs the lines of: IMHO battling divine beings, be they demi-gods, avatars, or full-fledged gods, so not be a regular or even semi-regular event. Such encounters should occur at the climax or turning point of campaign. To otherwise cheapens the mystery, and lets be honest, thrill of confronting such a power. Fighting a god once it a event to be remembered. Fighting a god for the 5th time is just mundane.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Angcuru!

I like Upper_Krust's idea of how to stat out gods if that's what you like to do IYC, but I can say out of experience that playing as a god is fun at first, but quickly turns into a Hana Barbera cartoon.

New Guy : "Wow, leet godly powers! Awesome!"

'Veteran' : "HAHA! But not so awesomely powerful as mine!"

'Elite' : "Mine are better!"

'Elite' 2 : "Are not!"

E1 : Are too!

E2 : No way!

E1 - I use my leet god power of Reality Bending to stop you!

E2 - I use a combo of Reality Bending and Time/Space Bending to warp your powers so that you actually harm yourself instead of me! HAHA!

E1 - Egad! I am stop-ped! But NO! I use my Mind Bending powers so that those other losers over there (In reference the Veteran and the new guy) side with me to defeat you haha!

and on, and on, and on......

I think thats the stereotype that usually surfaces amongst people who see it as a temporary novelty rather than as a credible extension of their campaign, although you forgot the bit about killing Zeus and Thor or somesuch.

However the munchkin (or whatever) reputation of immortal gaming is undeserved. The reality (if thats not too anachronistic) is as different as you allow it to be.

One of the aspects of immortal gaming I would advocate is playing the campaign right from low level. That way when you gain immortality its not some throwaway thing, but something you have worked hard to achieve. Theres more attachment to the characters.

Most people with a negative opinion of immortal gaming seem to have dabbled in a slapdash half-hearted manner.

"Okay guys roll up some 50th-level characters and lets go kick Orcus @ss!"

That might be a laugh in the short term, but ultimately that approach has no longevity, nor indeed really any point.

Both the players and the DM must have something invested in the campaign. Character actions create ripples in the DMs world. The more powerful the characters the larger the ripples.

 

[Umbran]

I always saw the role of such lesser characters as an extension of the deity itself, so this was never a problem.

To each their own. If I'm going to play a worshipper, that worshipper is going to be a unique individual, separate from the god. Rabbi Levi is not YHWH (or a small part fo YHWH) stuffed into a human suit.

This diversity better developed the character, since (surely) what defines a character is how they react to different situations.

Yes, but if i only play a given character for a session or two, there aren't all that many situations he's reacting to. And I certianly dont have much time to develop and grow the character in response to his situations if it's only one adventure. Hopping about does not give one much time to explore who the person is.

And that's not even considering the fact that for anything better thana mid-level character, a single adventure isn't really even enough to explore the character's abilities within the rules.

I agree, and would never suggest such.

You're the one who has been suggesting that there's something wrong with my cutting off the game when I think it is done.

Though again, the diversity of the immortal campaign practically allows you to try myriad campaign styles at once.

I've been playing RPGs for over 20 years. I've already tried lots and lots of campaign styles. I still like to expore entirely new systems, and I like to play an occasional one-shot. But for the dedication of time I need to make for a full campaign, I want something more focused. I prefer to get deeper into the psyche and long-term development of a single character than to hop around.

 

[Truth Seeker]

oLD and New God....

Please forgive me, if this has been posted already, but to a kill a 'god', there is a OLD universe rule.

Remove the essence, then it must be replaced.

Player(s) character(s) kills old god, player(s) character(s) becomes new God.

That simple.

And yes, if it took one or many PCs to bring a deity down. That position has to be filled immediately, because the universe will want a balance.

And then, if the players or DM has no concept of this...well, that is plain nuts!

 

[Truth Seeker]

oLD and New God....

And oh, for the record, Epic Level is bland...my opnion.

 

[S'mon]

Hey S'mon!

It does seem to cheapen Avatars somewhat though.

"Cheapen"? Naw. When they started using avatars in the 1e Greyhawk Adventures book, most of them were ca 12th level! They were never intended to be unbeatable by mortal non-epic foes. IMC many deities don't even use avatars, those that do typically have a need for powerful servants that remain under the radar of rival deities - since as you know, direct intervention by a god usually results in catastrophic escalation of the conflict, your 'nuke' analogy.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The only way a character mortal should win against a god is when it serves some overreaching mythographical purpose.

Thus, you have Herc winning in a wresting match. Herc is Strength Incarnate -- he's the strongest ever, and should be able to win.

But, you also have Aphrodite Stabbed -- love goddesses just cain't fight a war.

And you have Jacob's Arm Wrestling -- he's the Great Forefather, a refiner of humankind.

So yeah, in general, the gods are unapproachable figures who can crush your face a thousand different ways.

But if my PC's are going up in a beauty contest against Augus (god of Agriculture and War), they're prolly gonna win. Same way if they try to wrestle the Goddess of Beauty.