D&D 5E What direction should 5th edition take?

[LostSoul]

In a roundabout way I have come to agree with KD, more or less. I could explain my gaming history but let's just say - DMing 4E with a goal towards the kind of play I wanted to have has opened my eyes to a lot of different things.

One of those is that I don't care so much for balance!

Well, actually, that's not true. I want game balance - but to me that means I want the players to have to use their brains to figure out what the best course of action is. As a DM, I don't even care what that may be; I just provide the world-appropriate challenge. (And I've been telling the players what it is, since I'm new to this sort of thing. Informed choices, I guess.)

When players don't have to think to solve the challenge - that's when the game is broken.

I think that the more that players can interact with the game world - I also care about the internal consistency of the game world quite a bit, but no surprise there - the more choices they will have. There are a lot of implications about this.


KD: Have you used the stunt rules on page 42 much? How do you make rulings like that as a DM? How does/did your DM handle those sorts of actions?

 

[Prestidigitalis]

One thing I think we should keep in mind is that some tweaks are so minor that they can be addressed in 4e itself.

Example: in my opinion, WotC *did* nerf Wizards a bit more than they should have, and didn't provide enough interesting options for them.

Then comes Arcane Power. Now we have the Storm Pillar at-will (which I love), Enlarge Spell for tactical flexibility, a bunch of illusion spells, new implements, etc.

Yes, you can argue that the illusion-y spells are just damage with a bit of fringe, but it was still a big step in the right direction. I predict a lot more small steps, and a few big ones, before the next year is out.

 

[Garthanos]

Then comes Arcane Power. Now we have the Storm Pillar at-will (which I love), Enlarge Spell for tactical flexibility

I love Enlarge Spell... doesn't quite let me do mythic grade magic effects ... Merlins breath of the dragon... magic mist filling the valley just rocks.

 

[eriktheguy]

I guess I'm okay with going back to 'Wizards do less damage turn for turn but get to do crazy stuff a few times a day' as long as the balance is maintained. I agree with some people who say that fighters don't need dailies. Wizards could have more emphasis on their dailies. When I say that wizards should end encounters without dealing damage I don't mean 'save or die'. I was thinking of thinks like charm spells that only work against non-hostile targets, or knockout spells that only work against bloodied foes. Using magic to avoid encounters isn't save or die either, but its easier when the spell doesn't take 10 minutes to cast.

If there were a balanced way to make wizards more occasional POW while fighters were more consistent threats, I would roll with it. Theres no necessity for all classes to have the same number of encounter or daily powers. Giving fighters more encounter abilities and wizards more dailies would be interesting. They have already broken from the traditional formula for druids and psions, so I could see them doing a bit more in 5e.

 

[billd91]

A prime example of how you didn't NEED magic to combat magic pre 3e. Given that in 3e the only mundane way to detect invisibility is via Scent or Tremorsense, it should be nerfed.

Or just make a decent Spot or Listen check. You can attempt to do that in 3e at 1st level and with any bit of intelligence. It may not be easy, but it wasn't in 1e either unless you were high level with a high intelligence. Scent and tremorsense were certainly not the only mundane ways of detecting invisible creatures in 3e.

 

[Garthanos]

I guess I'm okay with going back to 'Wizards do less damage turn for turn but get to do crazy stuff a few times a day' as long as the balance is maintained. I agree with some people who say that fighters don't need dailies.

Some of the new invoker daily powers (in Divine Power) get a little more punch and the invoker takes a hit for it. For instance one dazes the invoker and another gives him ongoing psychic trauma.(hp loss). These are listed in the Effect part of the power and the power is indeed a little more over the top.

I think the bloodrages of barbarians is a good example of a daily that targets a martial style class... (I know they are primal but?). Now I also think that an Endurance check should be used to allow the recovery of these and an Wisdom and some of the Wizards dailies... Now the rip roaring ... hero who wont stay down abilities of fighters seem perfectly reasonable as dailies. Deep resource powers... do happen with non-wizards.

 

[AllisterH]

Or just make a decent Spot or Listen check. You can attempt to do that in 3e at 1st level and with any bit of intelligence. It may not be easy, but it wasn't in 1e either unless you were high level with a high intelligence. Scent and tremorsense were certainly not the only mundane ways of detecting invisible creatures in 3e.

Given that both 1e/2e explicitly mention that sound wasn't covered by Invisibility, exactly what made you think you couldn't detect an invisible person by sound in 1e?

(As for Spot, er, no. That most assuredly doesn't work unless you're implying that you use Spot to notice the effects that the wizard has on the mundane world)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

In a roundabout way I have come to agree with KD, more or less. I could explain my gaming history but let's just say - DMing 4E with a goal towards the kind of play I wanted to have has opened my eyes to a lot of different things.

One of those is that I don't care so much for balance!

Well, actually, that's not true. I want game balance - but to me that means I want the players to have to use their brains to figure out what the best course of action is. As a DM, I don't even care what that may be; I just provide the world-appropriate challenge. (And I've been telling the players what it is, since I'm new to this sort of thing. Informed choices, I guess.)

I agree, but I add one thing: I want that every player - regardless of class choice - gets a chance to use his brain and his characters ability to figure out the best course of action. Not all the time perhaps, but certainly no less than the character that plays the Wizard.

Spells "traditionally" provide a solution for every problem you can come up with. Even if it requires a clever application of all the spells you have, finding non-standard uses, it is still not something that non-spellcasters got.

Buff spells (instead of buff "powers"), teleport, scry, invisibility, dimension door, freedom of movement, fly, charm person, dominate, disintegrate. They and much more helped to solve problems straightforward. With some tricks, you could even use spells that weren't intended for that purpose. Sometimes, it is really "clever" because you use them in a specific context and understand how to use your power in that context, in other cases it's just abusive because you find an easily repeatable trick.

Either way, the player of the fighter or rogue did not have these options. Sometimes that means they could do nothing at all. Sometimes it means they had an option that was subpar. Only very rarely they had an option that was probably better. (I'd say for example, if you can "diplomance" an enemy, it's better than Charm Person.)

Of course, 4E doesn't change that much in that regard - by default, the "spellcasters" use the rituals. But they have a relatively easy option to get those tricks, too.

---

Daily resource management is important for strategy or "operational play". You have to manage your resources over a time frame. That means you have to make decisions on whether you use these resources - is this encounter difficult enough to warrant the use of a limited resource? Or is this encounter maybe not difficult enough, but the current scenario just benefits considerably from using a particular limited resource?

And once these resources are low - do you decide to rest? How will that hinder your long-term goals? Will the enemy reinforce his defenses? Will the assassin have left town by then? Will the cultists have completed their ritual?


Wealth could be another way instead of using daily powers. Maybe "power scrolls" could actually work. But I don't think they work if you don't give them to every power source - without at least creating something else to compensate for their presence. You would have to ensure that getting a permanent item for a fighter would be just as useful as a large set of spell scrolls for a Wizard. That might be possible, weapons might grant higher bonuses to damage than magical implements (if still around), and you calculate the average lifetime of a weapon and the average extra damage/conditions inflicted by it and ensure that the cost of a set of scrolls with the same extra damage/conditions are the same.


One could also remove the concept of daily powers for martial characters - just remove the concept of daily powers as "daily" entirely and instead say that the powers have recovery times measured in encounters. martial characters get powers that recover after every encounter but are only half as effective as the arcane powers that recover every two encounters (not defined as every 5 minutes). Of course, trying to keep this verisimilitude is another matter. (What's the game world significance of encounters?)

 

[billd91]

Given that both 1e/2e explicitly mention that sound wasn't covered by Invisibility, exactly what made you think you couldn't detect an invisible person by sound in 1e?

(As for Spot, er, no. That most assuredly doesn't work unless you're implying that you use Spot to notice the effects that the wizard has on the mundane world)

Both of these things - sound and effects of someone invisible moving through an area - are exactly what the 1e tables for detecting invisible are all about. They take the place of specific Spot and Listen rules. The skill structure in 3e broadens it to every character, not just the smart or powerful.

 

[Garthanos]

I guess I'm okay with going back to 'Wizards do less damage turn for turn but get to do crazy stuff a few times a day' as long as the balance is maintained. I agree with some people who say that fighters don't need dailies. Wizards could have more emphasis on their dailies. When I say that wizards should end encounters without dealing damage I don't mean 'save or die'.

Sure seemed like it... ---

The word Damage I think is misleading...
If they called it hit point loss and if we had a wound system to help point out hit point loss caused by many of these powers are not wounds in a normal sense, it would have a positive effect on the visualization. And some of the effects could/should always be seen as one form of hp loss like the inducing fatigue I mentioned in my sleeping beauty (fatiguing sleep) spell i postulated.

If hit points represented something less abstract/vague it would make sense for far fewer spells to induce or cause their loss.(how many many effects does my luck not try to defend me from??)

Note that hitpoints being vague created issues in visualization is something people came to when playing D&D 1.0.... not something new. I think that hitpoints are now truer to form ... in that there definition and in game effects are a closer match now than they were before... but given the definition over laps many things (most of which are very reasonable to recover in just a short time)

I was thinking of thinks like charm spells that only work against non-hostile targets, or knockout spells that only work against bloodied foes.

Sound ok, but lets look a little closer... at say that knockout spell... easiest to analyse since its goal is close to identical as that of normal attacks.

Against a level 2 solo it would be equivalent potency of an attack causing 92 points of hp loss. (sounds like an aweful lot and that is to do a level 2)
and a level 2 elite its like 28 to 43 hp of effectiveness.. OK and dropping down to a level 2 standard monster 15 - 24 hps.... now we are talking business

Not an unreasonable ammount of effect for a sorceror/warlock level 1 encounter power ...(They are strikers not a controllers but this spells action is actually a striker function no matter what its special effects)

I could adjust the adversaries and give them appropriate defenses like 5 points better defense (just for use against these absolute save or die effects - even if tied to bloodied state - it is what it is) for elites and that plus an extra defense roll against it for the solos.

Now your knockout spell could be a level 1 encounter spell of a Warlock or Sorceror... they specialize in this ... or a level 5 daily Wizard spell.

Hmmm... but I think I think I like Phantasmal Assailant better
which might completely disable that bloodied standard 2nd level opponent... his completely disabled state at zero hitpoints I would describe as eyes wide open in a state of permanent nightmare or maybe clawing eyes out by self(npc only) with mind completely gone in general oblivious to all attacks.