D&D 5E What direction should 5th edition take?

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
In some games awarding narratively awarded points relate to well... having your character limited in some fashion. Drawing back in fear of the Dragon can be the impact of a DM's bribe ;-), or conforming to a predefined weakness of your character when it actually hinders you.
 

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Nifft

Penguin Herder
This is sort of on the topic of 4e and 5e, but I'm interested to know what ENworld thinks about it.

Do you think that monsters need ability scores anymore?

My reasoning is that the rules in the DMG for making monsters pretty much outline their statistics as they need be. If you want to make a monster more more agile, more buff, more intellectual, you can do this with combat stats instead of ability scores. I don't see a need for anyone but player characters to have ability scores, and therefore I don't see a need for any ability scores to start at 10.
Only as a tool for helping to manage player expectations.

For example, "the huge, strong ogre":
- probably has a good Fort defense
- probably has a decent Athletics check
- probably has a high carrying capacity

Those last two don't matter in a flat, featureless arena combat, but they might matter a great deal if the PCs are getting creative, or the DM wants to craft a mixed combat / environmental challenge.

In other words, having a high Strength has both combat and non-combat implications, and if we get rid of that "bundle", we need to compensate for it with some other intuitive short-hand.

Cheers, -- N
 


Tai

First Post
That's because ability checks have always been terrible. The stat means pretty much nothing beside a d20 - an average human has something like a 20% chance of beating the Sarlacc in a tug of war. These days there are skills to use in place of most of the stats, so at least you can be trained or untrained in them...

As regards narrative control of player resources, there are several good examples of them being used in play. Spirit of the Century gives out extra fate points if you agree to be compelled by your character traits - or penalises you if you refuse. Burning wheel has all kinds of different points you get for various different problems suffered - although I think that does get a bit over the top. Personally, though, I don't think having multiple resources does make the system more complicated. Having a unified resource would make balancing so difficult that the variety of the game would suffer as a result. Milestones already give a degree of narrative control to the DM, and the moment you start rewarding players with combat ability resources for roleplaying, the game becomes a competition.
 

SuperGnome

First Post
I like that 2e was powered by imagination and guidelines (you could play with just some characters and dice). I like that 3e gave us more options and brought in more balance (to a point, and with great faults, but there's power creep for ya). I like that 4e is easier to run in general (though routinely managing 3-4 effects each on 8 PC's and Monsters is lame).

I didn't like the extreme race/class limitations of 2e. I didn't like the min-max aspect and different-rules-for-everything apprach of 3e. I can barely stand the soullessness of 4e (no mystery, sense of wonder, or any sense of actually being your character in a fantasy world).

How about 3e race/class rules and core mechanic, 2e general rules, and 4e quality books?

Really, I enjoy tactical combat, but it has to make some sort of sense. I can only explain a halfling moving a bulette all over the place in random fashion so many ways. UGH!
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
the moment you start rewarding players with combat ability resources for roleplaying, the game becomes a competition.
Exalted takes advantage of that competition to its benefit, so far as I've seen.

You want the RP award to be strictly limited, both in magnitude and in duration. Exalted makes the dice bonus small, and the duration instant.

Cheers, -- N
 

eriktheguy

First Post
I like that 2e was powered by imagination and guidelines (you could play with just some characters and dice). I like that 3e gave us more options and brought in more balance (to a point, and with great faults, but there's power creep for ya). I like that 4e is easier to run in general (though routinely managing 3-4 effects each on 8 PC's and Monsters is lame).

I didn't like the extreme race/class limitations of 2e. I didn't like the min-max aspect and different-rules-for-everything apprach of 3e. I can barely stand the soullessness of 4e (no mystery, sense of wonder, or any sense of actually being your character in a fantasy world).

How about 3e race/class rules and core mechanic, 2e general rules, and 4e quality books?

Really, I enjoy tactical combat, but it has to make some sort of sense. I can only explain a halfling moving a bulette all over the place in random fashion so many ways. UGH!

I'm not sure I understand your argument here. Saying that 2e was powered by imagination seems like a euphemism for 'imagination was necessary for things that the rules didn't cover'. I haven't seen anything in 4e that limits players from using their imaginations. As far as I'm concerned 4e is a combat system and a skill system and imagination/role playing are the responsibilities of the players. I find that my groups play 4e with the same level of imagination that they used in 2e and 3e. The main differences are the level of simplicity (which I appreciate for my newer players) and the level of balance (which I appreciate for my older players).
I think if you have been playing since 2e, then it is your responsibility to understand that the DM always has final call. If a campaign does not have as much mystery as a particular group prefers because of the new rules, I believe the DM is responsible, not the rules. I don't think it takes an experienced DM to tell the party that 'you have never heard of this monster before', or 'even after a short study, you still don't know what the magical blade in your hands is capable of'.
If you are having trouble with satisfying the tastes of your table due to the ways 4e is designed you might find them enjoying the sessions a bit more if you start throwing a few curve balls. I think 4e is designed this way because that's how most players would like to run things.
 

I would not be so quick to assume that 5E will necessarily be a complete overhaul and different system. That might depend a lot on the context in which it is undertaken.

I can image a system that refines the combat system and begins from the start with options that have been tested over time. Generally what would help would be a more open explanation on the "power level" of encounter powers, daily powers, action point uses and daily item powers. Maybe there will also be some aspects that will get unified, for example unifying all types of encounter and daily powers, regardless whether from an item power, class power, skill power or yet-to-be-invented-power.
 

invokethehojo

First Post
I think if you have been playing since 2e, then it is your responsibility to understand that the DM always has final call. If a campaign does not have as much mystery as a particular group prefers because of the new rules, I believe the DM is responsible, not the rules. I don't think it takes an experienced DM to tell the party that 'you have never heard of this monster before', or 'even after a short study, you still don't know what the magical blade in your hands is capable of'.
If you are having trouble with satisfying the tastes of your table due to the ways 4e is designed you might find them enjoying the sessions a bit more if you start throwing a few curve balls. I think 4e is designed this way because that's how most players would like to run things.

Here is my problem with your way of thinking: I play with a group at a local nerd store where most of the group doesn't talk much outside of the gaming table. When we get together it works best if we can all play off what is in the books. Telling everyone that you are running something for 4e next week tells them they should expect to play by the book. If you want to communicate to them that you intend to change things a little bit means, at least with this current editions, that you have to really spell things out very clearly. The chances are small, yet it always seems to happen, that when you change something tiny (for the sake of this argument lets say adding more wonder) you affect the entire game. When you decide to make things less explicit (which is how the book lays them out) there will inevitably be a character built around monster knowledge, or an artificer built around magic item manipulation.

In this situation it becomes very easy to 1. screw your players out of the character they want to play because your flavor changes the rules that governs the character they want to play or 2. you have to spend a lot of time specifically writing out how your flavor changes affect this or that aspect of the game. Everyone should be able to approach the game being confident that what they read in the book is what they will see at the table, so they can build their character accordingly. If a system is so intricate that a specific character can be ruined by a tweak in the flavor of it's rules (which ends up affecting those rules), then the system could use some work in my opinion. You shouldn't have to worry about walking into a game with a character that just doesn't work even though it was made by the book purely because the DM changed a little bit of the flavor of the game.

The point I'm trying to make here is that 5e could be designed from the ground up in such a way that making a small change in flavor wouldn't have potentially devastating or far reaching effects on the rest of the rules, like it does now.
 

Here is my problem with your way of thinking: I play with a group at a local nerd store where most of the group doesn't talk much outside of the gaming table. When we get together it works best if we can all play off what is in the books. Telling everyone that you are running something for 4e next week tells them they should expect to play by the book. If you want to communicate to them that you intend to change things a little bit means, at least with this current editions, that you have to really spell things out very clearly. The chances are small, yet it always seems to happen, that when you change something tiny (for the sake of this argument lets say adding more wonder) you affect the entire game. When you decide to make things less explicit (which is how the book lays them out) there will inevitably be a character built around monster knowledge, or an artificer built around magic item manipulation.

In this situation it becomes very easy to 1. screw your players out of the character they want to play because your flavor changes the rules that governs the character they want to play or 2. you have to spend a lot of time specifically writing out how your flavor changes affect this or that aspect of the game. Everyone should be able to approach the game being confident that what they read in the book is what they will see at the table, so they can build their character accordingly. If a system is so intricate that a specific character can be ruined by a tweak in the flavor of it's rules (which ends up affecting those rules), then the system could use some work in my opinion. You shouldn't have to worry about walking into a game with a character that just doesn't work even though it was made by the book purely because the DM changed a little bit of the flavor of the game.

The point I'm trying to make here is that 5e could be designed from the ground up in such a way that making a small change in flavor wouldn't have potentially devastating or far reaching effects on the rest of the rules, like it does now.

I'm sorry, but I find this argument to be preposterous. It might have been almost a decent argument WRT to 3.x where the mechanics of things were explicitly tied to the fluff. 4e was the answer to that. If you missed that message somehow I think maybe you want to go back and actually look at how 4e works and maybe it will start to make sense.

And the whole concept that somehow a game would be ruined if anything was varied in the slightest degree from book standard? Huh? How could you have even played 2e? We aren't talking about major modifications (or even ANY modifications) to the core mechanics of the game, the mechanics of classes, etc. All we're talking about here is ordinary reskinning of things and garden variety homebrew content like a new item, ritual, power, maybe a new race. Its expected that people will design new monsters, change existing ones slightly, etc.

The sense of wonder and imagination did not come from any rulebook and has nothing to do with the rules. I've been running D&D games for 30+ years, and the majority of that time with a lot of the same players. They have always known every single rulebook, supplement, etc cold. Any group of "game nerds" as you describe it would certainly be the same. You aren't going to suprise them with any monster that's in the book, or magic item, or spell, etc.

How you're going to capture wonder and imagination is in how you put the elements together and how you describe it. At best all a rule book can do is give you suggestions and guidelines on how to do it in a workable fashion. 4e does that better than any previous edition of D&D as far as I can tell. And its a good solid system, so if you add in a new thing or modify an existing thing, the mechanics of the game are there to deal with it.

The game could still be improved in my opinion, but going back to a poorly written set of mechanics in the misbegotten notion that it somehow adds a sense of wonder to the game is just nonsensical. It will do no such thing. If you've lost your sense of wonder in the game, I have to suggest you may need to go look for inspiration outside the rule books. Heck even within the various 4e books there are a lot of story ideas, background info, and settings you can draw from.
 

Space Coyote

First Post
I remember when the 3.5 edition came out, my gaming group thought that that would be the last edition of D&D because the game rules covered so much and offered so many options. Then the 4th edition was announced and we were curious as to what the changes would be.

At first I was a little disappointed because the 4th edition almost seemed like a different game altogether since so many rules were so different from any previous version. My gaming group is only just getting into 4th edition now (we made characters :D), but it looks good so far. This kind of opened my eyes and I think that I would be receptive to a future version of the game being changed even further.

However, if the game were to change too much (such as completely removing the statistics or class or something similar), then there would be no point, if the game was no longer recognizable as Dungeons & Dragons.

I still think it is a little too early to think about a newer edition though :D heh.
 

eriktheguy

First Post
Have to agree with Abdul on that last bit. Houserules and tweaks are the reason communities like this exist, and many of the new rules of each edition were houserules used in the previous one. The players rule the game, not vice-versa. If you are in the habit of just telling people to make a 4e character for next week and don't want to throw them curveballs that isn't a problem, but there's no reason you can't tell them '4e next week, no bloodclaw, reckless or ruin items and you can take a free expertise feat' or something of the sort.
 

Here is my problem with your way of thinking: I play with a group at a local nerd store where most of the group doesn't talk much outside of the gaming table.

I've been running D&D games for 30+ years, and the majority of that time with a lot of the same players.

These are two very different situations. How well one knows the players can be a big factor in the tolerance towards changes in the rules no matter what edition you are playing. I can run stuff for my regular group that wouldn't work as a pickup game for strangers in a game shop.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The sense of wonder and imagination did not come from any rulebook and has nothing to do with the rules.

QFT

The idea that even the people one plays with at the LGS are strangers whos expectations for play are set in stone... or could stay such is kind of unlikely or contrived from my point of view. (conventions certainly).
 

Prestidigitalis

First Post
Getting in late -- I hope someone is still reading...

Problems with 4e and preferences for 5e:

1. Long combats with too much bookkeeping (marking, zones, status conditions, etc.) -- keep the flavor but streamline the "process" part. [Well-designed accessories could help a lot, even with no rule changes.]

2. Flavorful +1 magic items cast aside for vanilla +2s -- eliminate static bonuses on magic items and add even more flavor.

3. Too hard to make PCs that match character concepts (at least, all the players in my group believe this) -- loosen up multi-classing a bit, add more feats that allow cross-class feature use.

4. At-will powers are boring -- add more at-will powers, give characters more than 2 at Level 1, make at-wills more customizable without feats, e.g. at the time of the attack a character using Footwork Lure can choose to push 2, slide 1, or knock prone (save to avoid) [Please don't quibble, this is just an example of the idea.]

5. Rituals need some work. I'll leave tweaks up to the designers.

6. Rename "residuum" to "residium" because that's what everyone says anyway. (Given a choice, I would teach people how to read phonetically, but that doesn't seem to be practical.)
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
because that's what everyone says anyway. (Given a choice, I would teach people how to read phonetically, but that doesn't seem to be practical.)

Everyone can be persnickety in their own way for instance...
hmmmm I must have a mental block Residium sounds funny
makes me think of somebodies residence where as..
residual left over from a disenchanted magic item
called residuum works ummm better for me;-)
 

Prestidigitalis

First Post
Garthanos: Yes, "residium" sounds funny to me, too. Yet that's what everyone in my group says, except for me. I wonder if they all pronounce "vacuum" as "vacium"...
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
My take:

1) Get rid of sameness. This is the #1 complaint of my players. Many of them want to jump to Pathfinder and the only reason they are not doing so is because we wanted a campaign to start at level 1 and go to level 30. That and the fact that everyone has spent so much money on 4E books (as DM, I probably spent over $400). A Fighter does indeed feel like other classes due to similarities of powers. Need an area effect, a Fighter can accomplish this. The major #1 offender of this is that nearly all powers are damaging powers. Yawn. My players want many more powers that do not do damage, but affect the environment or conditions of the foes or some such.

2) Bring back durations. X occurs until the start or end of the attacker's or target's round are TERRIBLE game mechanics. X occurs until a save is made is ok, but not all durations should be that limiting either. Allow buff spells that last for various extended periods of time. Allow Wizards to Fly.

3) Go back to few ability classes and many ability classes. In our games, the PCs for players that are not there are played by other players. In 3E, Wizards or other heavy duty spell casters might be harder for someone else to run, but Fighters and Barbarians and Rangers and Paladins and Monks and Rogues and Bards were pretty darn easy for anyone to just pick up. In 4E, there are so many class abilities and feats and powers that every single PC is more difficult to play, especially in combat, unless the player has played that class of PC before.

4) Get rid of dailies.
5) Get rid of milestones.
6) Make Action Points optional.
7) A lot less reliance on magic items.
8) Do not have a 6 delta between one PC and the next on a starting defense and then only raise 2 out of the 3 defenses with level advancement.
9) Better yet, do not have ability scores that rise. This creates problems between haves and have nots as one advances levels. The Wizard still fails his Perception roll at level 30 because the monsters have a better chance to Hide against him than they did at level 1.
10) Git rid of silly healing rules. Healing should not be limited to healing surges cause it does not make sense that pouring a Healing Potion down any creature's throat (PC or NPC) does not heal it. Magic should just plain overrule normal physics.
11) Git rid of silly special PC and monster rules. Monsters have no Healing Surges. Why not? When I have a monster Charm the PC, the PC should be able to heal the monster. The game physics should apply equally the same to PCs and to NPCs. Not just game physics on how fire works, but on how healing and all other game mechanics work.
12) And let a Charm be a Charm. Let a Domination be a Domination. The concept of the PC farting around and not doing everything in his power to assist the NPC is inferior game enjoyment design. Charms should be super serious threats.
13) Bring back real illusions, not game mechanics from other areas pretending to be illusions.
14) Get rid of auto-Identify in the dungeon. The game system is now so magic item dependent that upgrading a character sheet is time consuming plus there are few magic item mysteries anymore.
15) Get rid of temporary hit point class features. A power is one thing. Giving temporary hit points out the ying yang for a class is broken. This basically boils down to avoiding game mechanic class features (i.e. adding a class feature to play with a game mechanic more because the game mechanic exists than because it makes flavor sense for the class). Anytime a class feature is focused on the game mechanics, it's typically a mistake.
 

SSquirrel

Explorer
If you think that sort of thing is good, why not make the rules work in a way that either rewards the player for doing it or make it so that you have to describe your attack?

It's not too hard to do: "The DM determines the DC for the attack roll by selecting a Defense (AC, Fort, Ref, or Will) based on the description of the attack." That would do it. (That might not be the best way to do it, it's just an example of something that would make description necessary.)

They probably don't have it encoded in the rules that it is required b/c some people just don't care. I've known people in all editions of the game that leave things at "my fighter is angry, he swings his sword at the orc *roll*" and no edition will change that. I've been in groups that highly encourage more description and the DM awarded extra XP for various things. Nothing is stopping that from happening.

Some people are very good at the descriptions and some people aren't. I wouldn't want to see the mechanics of the game dependent on the players giving a thorough description. That will just help limit the number of players further.
 

Turtlejay

First Post
My take:
. . .some stuff. . .

There is no way to say anthing to this without sounding snarky or like I am attacking you personally. It just sounds like your list of changes are a huge rewind to 3.5 and its way of thinking.

I do not like the sameness (or homogenous in the main forum) argument. I don't see it, and I think it is a forest and trees problem. If you see PC's as a collection of their abilities, then they look the same. If you see them as individuals with different abilities that are built around a common framework, they are different. It is easy to say "Sorcerer and Fighter have 2 at wills, 3 encounters, and 3 dailies, they are the same!" without actually looking at what those powers *do* or considering how they interact with their class abilities and their behavior in combat.

For some of your other things (5,6,7,10,14,15) house rules work just fine. In fact, my current game has no magic items. We do not have wishlists. We were granted our first magic items at level *8*, and those are likely our only ones (and only one item per person, with some restrictions), and our game works just fine without them, thanks.

Jay
 

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