what do you do when a +3 bloodclaw weapon is more powerful than a +4 artifact

[Piratecat]

All: I appreciate the attempts to help but this isn't a simple problem with a simple fix. You're not going to "convince" me that there's not really a problem with quips, canned responses, or rapid-fire posts filled with logical fallacies or that just gives one of the million counters that have been disproven a million times before. I'm talking about a big-picture, "meta" issue here. It's not situational and it's not about one product or one item or one campaign. And banning things and creating house rules doesn't work as well in 4.0's online-focused, character-builder driven product environment. If nothing else, more leaks keep springing every month, so when do you run out of fingers to plug the dam? Not to mention it's not my job to beta-test their products.

I really don't see it; if you want folks to understand, it might help if you gave specific examples. If you just want to grouse instead of discuss and solve the problem, tell us that, too.

And while I don't have any particular need to change your mind about anything, I really suspect that part of what you're seeing is group related. I haven't seen lots of people who perceive the same structural instabilities. I also challenge your assertion that it's hard to house rule or ban items.

Ultimately, you should play a game that's fun for you! If that isn't 4e, maybe it's Pathfinder or 3e or any number of other superb games out there. Complaining that you're seeing problems doesn't actually help anything unless you want to fix those problems or swap them for other problems by changing systems.

 

[Barastrondo]

All: I appreciate the attempts to help but this isn't a simple problem with a simple fix.

If the question is "what do you do?", people may offer answers that don't work for you, but work very well for them. You may see them as logical fallacies or things that have been disproven, but if they work for a group, they work. Not terribly helpful in all cases, but most people's best advice is always going to be what works for them.

This is part of my frustration. How do you fix it when it's not your job to fix it and the normal channels of fixing are intentionally difficult or obscure? It's an incredibly complex problem and it will take an incredibly complex solution - the only simple solution is to stop purchasing WotC stuff and walk away.

Walking away is a simple solution, but it wouldn't be my group's. We'd probably just houserule bloodclaw weapons. Yes, I know that you consider that to be part of a complicated fix. Me, I see it as a working part of a simple one.

The way I see it, running a game is a constant series of judgment calls. You can't just set up an algorithm and go — players will constantly be trying new stuff to adjudge, and you're going to be coming up with ideas not in the books, like reskinned monsters or design-your-own monsters and skill challenges, all that. All games work best (in my experience) if you keep that in mind. They also work best if the players accept that as part of the social contract. If you say "Hey, I'm gonna houserule bloodclaw weapons," and explain why, the players should accept said decision. Particularly if you're doing it for their benefit — removing the "pick this or you're foolish" pressure.

You may have some players unhappy with any one particular judgment call. That'll happen. But the way the odds work, if you know your group, over time it's a clear net positive. No printed game will ever know your tastes better than you do. Ever. Confidence in that knowledge, and in the idea that your players trust you to look out for their fun, will carry you through however many leaks spring in a dam.

Or rather, that's what works for me. It may not work for you, but you did ask how other folks handle it.

 

[Mallus]

Quite frankly, if it ever became a problem in my game, I would just institute one simple house rule: no repeats.

If one character has a magic item, nobody else can buy, find or make another one of the same type.

I did this voluntarily with my current 4e paladin, when I realized that both he and the party's fighter were wearing Cloaks of the Walking Wounded, Iron Armbands of Might, and wielding Bloodclaw weapons.

(I kinda miss the Armbands, even though I replaced them with an item much more suited for my character. But I held onto the Bloodclaw weapon. They really are rather nifty...).

 

[malraux]

All: I appreciate the attempts to help but this isn't a simple problem with a simple fix. You're not going to "convince" me that there's not really a problem with quips, canned responses, or rapid-fire posts filled with logical fallacies or that just gives one of the million counters that have been disproven a million times before. I'm talking about a big-picture, "meta" issue here. It's not situational and it's not about one product or one item or one campaign. And banning things and creating house rules doesn't work as well in 4.0's online-focused, character-builder driven product environment. If nothing else, more leaks keep springing every month, so when do you run out of fingers to plug the dam? Not to mention it's not my job to beta-test their products.

Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.

edit: In addition, I don't see how the fact that the character builder exists makes it harder to ban stuff. I can see that it makes life harder to houserule stuff (like adjusting the damage that the bloodclaw can do) because then you have to edit all the cards. But it doesn't make it harder to just say that you cannot select that weapon. But on the meta issue, I'm just not seeing this huge range of broken items, powers and feats that you see. At worst, I see a few things that are stronger than I'd like, but nothing that feels like a dam about to burst and flood the whole game with unbalance.

 

[evilbob]

Thanks, Barastrondo, for being helpful. And thanks, Mallus, for being completely unhelpful: you typify the sort of stuff that I knew would be coming in this thread, so you're getting it out of the way early. Maybe others will read your post, know that I've been "got" and just move on.

Fair enough, Piratecat: I know this is hard for me to explain because it's not an argument about a specific example. I can't just say "bloodclaw is HR'd" and it fix the problem, and I'm sure I'm not doing a good job explaining why that's the case. It's much cloudier than that; bloodclaw is just one piece of the puzzle. But I know that bloodclaw is a real problem; I don't think anyone can argue that - which is why it makes a good piece to showcase, and why it is titling the thread.

Barastrondo's point about solving problems as you come to them is a great one, and that's what I used to think, too. But part of the problem is that these are coming too fast and too furious; I can't keep up with everything that's imbalanced and it's frankly insulting to me that the product would have so many issues and have so many holes. I'm tired of beta-testing other people's work, folks! I stopped playing recently-released PC games for the same reason. And yes, it's hard to house-rule everything because then you just end up with an ever-growing list of changes and tweaks and one day you wake up and you're Titanium Dragon. (Ok, maybe not that bad.) And not all of them fit into the Character Builder which has become an indispensable tool for playing the online-based game that 4.0 has become. And you compromise here and there and tweak this and change that but guys, I've been tweaking and changing and compromising and fixing and after all this time I guess I'm just damn tired of it all. Why can't I just play the game and expect a reasonable amount of errors? Why are there so damn many? (And why won't they just hire an editor that reads the books before they are released for typos?)


Guys, part of this -is- just my frustration. It comes from my frustration with a product that I have loved and want desperately to continue to love. And believe me, I have used all of these arguments against what I'm saying myself in the past - I know what their rationale is and I have believed it for a long time. But I just don't see it anymore; the counter-examples are just too numerous and too strong.

Honestly, I don't know that there is a solution to this problem. I'm pretty sure that the only kind of solution that exists is well outside of my meager realm of control - so maybe, Piratecat, I am just bitching. There you go. But honestly, at this point I don't even think I care about solving the problem anymore; I think I'd settle for just one other person who can understand what I am saying and agrees with me.

 

[Fanaelialae]

You admit you allowed bloodclaw into your game knowing it would be a problem. If you're okay with characters being "stupidly overpowered" and you allowed it in the first place, then why is it a problem? If you aren't, ban or house rule what you think is broken, because what that constitutes can vary pretty widely from group to group (for example, in one of the games I'm playing in the DM ruled that Changelings cannot take the form of a living individual).

I think you're looking at things in very black and white terms, when the truth is mired somewhere amongst shades of grey. If you want the +4 artifact to be an upgrade for the bloodclaw weapon, swap one of it's abilities for the bloodclaw weapon's. Instant upgrade. If you don't want bloodclaw in your game, speak to the player about the problem and try to find some compromise that you're both satisfied with. You could even go old school and arrange an "accident" for the weapon, though I recommend the former method.

The designers of the game are human. While I'm sure that they'd like to release material that is 100% perfectly balanced, the reality of it is that they can and will make mistakes. 4e is pretty well balanced, but things slip through. They have release schedules to meet and don't have unlimited playtesting or errata resources. I honestly don't think your "incredibly complex solution" exists; the best that can be done is what DMs in every edition of D&D (and probably most other RPGs as well) have done: compensate for any imbalance ourselves.

You're obviously free to do what you will, but this really isn't a 4e issue. If your players enjoy serious optimization, you're likely to find that you have the same problems with any RPG that has a robust enough system to allow optimization. You can ask the players to tone down the optimizing, handle it from your side by house ruling and banning problematic items, or accept it.

YMMV

 

[GMforPowergamers]

what artifat is it so we can compair?

edit: Also in my sat night game our avenger turned down bloodclaw...he has an excution axe that has the power (can't remember the name) that when he crits he gets an extra basic attack, and since he is set up to crit more often then most, it is better for him...

All: I appreciate the attempts to help but this isn't a simple problem with a simple fix. You're not going to "convince" me that there's not really a problem with quips, canned responses, or rapid-fire posts filled with logical fallacies

so did you read my post at all??? you know the one that talked about an avenger useing a diffrent weapon and still being optimized, then asking for what artafact didn't keep up with it...

I'm talking about a big-picture, "meta" issue here. It's not situational and it's not about one product or one item or one campaign.

then lets talk about tiers of optimazation, and that there are levels of how good items are...

This is part of my frustration. How do you fix it when it's not your job to fix it and the normal channels of fixing are intentionally difficult or obscure?

how about you just play the game...no need to 'fix' things if you don't break it down to numbers for comparasion first...

It's an incredibly complex problem and it will take an incredibly complex solution - the only simple solution is to stop purchasing WotC stuff and walk away.

Oh I see this is an nti WotC rant, not a real ask for help...sorry my bad I thought you found a problem and wanted to talk about it...

 

[Umbran]

What is left to do other than stop purchasing products with known defects.

What is left to do? Remember that while they can make a system foolproof, they cannot make it immune to intentional abuse.

You specifically state that the entire group is using heftily overpowered items. This is strong evidence that you bunch are actively pursuing the highest edge of the power range. You think it is a flaw of the system that you can find it? You find it a flaw in the system that it allowed you to do what you wanted to do?

Or, perhaps your problem is that they didn't specifically reserve the word "artifact", and set about a campaign of making sure that no items that are called "artifact" could be ever interpreted as being mechanically weaker than items that are not so labeled?

I think that you find what you look for. If you are seeking things to call flaws in the system, you'll find things to call flaws in the system. If, instead, you seek to find how your own behavior has resulted in your current situation, you'll find that instead.

If, in playing the game, you look for the extremes of power, you will find them. This is not a fault of the system - it is not possible to build a system of interesting complexity that doesn't have them.

That last point, actually, is derived from a mathematical proof in computer science - beyond a certain point of complexity (a point which most modern applications are beyond, btw) it is not possible, even in theory, to be 100% certain you've got it bug-free. There will be bugs. You will find them if you seek them.

 

[malraux]

But honestly, at this point I don't even think I care about solving the problem anymore; I think I'd settle for just one other person who can understand what I am saying and agrees with me.

This is the internet, of course someone agrees with you. Of course, it also means that lots of people disagree with you. It also means that someone agrees with you and has a ecxiting busnes oppertunity involing a recent deceaded Nigerian prince that they want to share with you.

Assuming your dislike of the game is as strong as you present, the question that matters isn't if someone here agrees with you, its if your group agrees with you. If they do, then you can talk about your options (move to a new system, agree to stop powergaming, cut back to just the x number of books and start houseruling those). But really, if you dislike the game enough that you can't even enumerate your reasons, its time to look for a new game; and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[SteveC]

I see a lot of issues like this at work, where I'm in a corporate environment as a sys-admin. My company is heavily regulated, and it can make the lives of many of my coworkers very difficult. When someone comes to me with a problem like you've come to the forum, I have two possible ways to address it: I can try and find a solution for them, or I can commiserate and say, "I'm sorry, that's really tough."

Almost all of the time I start by trying to find a solution, and we can usually come up with a workaround that gets things done and keeps everyone at least not totally exasperated at the end of the day. What I often find, however, is that the person is just coming in to blow off some steam and doesn't really want a solution. So the question I have is: do you want ideas for dealing with the problems? Or would you prefer to just get a sympathetic ear? If it's the latter, you've got it: I've found plenty of issues like this with 4E, so I really understand where you're coming from.

If you'd like to find some solutions, we need to get a list going of the specifics so that we can help figure out your way out of the wilderness.

--Steve