what do you do when a +3 bloodclaw weapon is more powerful than a +4 artifact

[Dolfan]

Although I read the forums so often, I rarely find a reason that I need to log in and toss my opinion in, but this seems to be one of those times.

Evilbob, I get that what you're complaining about is a far wider reaching issue that you're having with 4th edition than just with bloodclaw weapons, but that bloodclaw weapons are symptomatic of the entire issue... I hear that, and I agree to a certain extent, but I also disagree in other ways.

In 3.5, which you mentioned earlier, I had to alter entire campaigns to accomodate spells like glitterdust and fireballs with a string of metamagic feats applied. They were incredibly game breaking for what I had planned, but because players had developed their characters around the use of these things, and because I knew that if I banned them the players would just find other ways to break things, I left them alone.

I think that's probably a little of what's going on with your group and 4e. I actually think your group and mine are likely quite a bit alike... a desire to roleplay, but also an ability to find that upper end of the power spectrum and make sure that every last character they make is getting the most out of their abilities, items, etc. When you do that, you're bound to find out what's broken with just about everything.

That being said, I'll give you a couple tips (even though I'm not sure you're looking for them) that I'm incorporating into my new campaign. First, rather than go through and ban individual items, I've limited access to the Enchant Item ritual and the ability to purchase items. Since nobody has chosen to play an artificer, nobody will have the ability to enchant items, but should they choose to in the future, I will work with the players to ensure that the item combinations they are coming up with fit within the bounds of what is reasonable. For the items they find, I'm getting wish lists and am already working with them on why I think certain items may or may not be good for them.

Since bloodclaw was the example, I will say this -- I have an avenger that has asked for a bloodclaw and while I'm currently planning on giving it to him, I'd be lying if I said it didn't make me nervous. This has nothing to do with the item, but with the player. I know from playing a Warden with a bunch of area effect attacks and a bloodclaw weapon just how devastating it can be... both to the enemy and to me. If I catch 4 guys in my burst with the weapon, that's 12 damage to me right there. Do that a few rounds in a row and it doesn't matter if the enemy has been hitting me or not. If I were a rogue or someone else with very few HPs and surges... well... I don't think I'd be inclined to risk it.

Going back to a more general view -- I don't know that quitting 4e and moving to another RPG is going to fix the answer for you. The only solution is to fix the players so that they can understand that the goal here isn't to "win D&D". I learned that steamrolling encounters is actually less fun than being challenged a while ago, so I don't bother trying to create the ultimate destruction machine anymore, and I'm having a much better time.

 

[Obryn]

That works when you don't have a PC with access to ritual magic, but thanks to Enchant Item, anyone can have anything they want at any time (post-level 4).

...that's at or below their own level, that they can afford, and that the DM hasn't banned...

-O

 

[Herschel]

Am I the only one who doesn't see the Bloodclaw weapon as overpowered?

I'm with you. Most of thr melee strikers I play with or DM for are usually low on the surge total by the end of the "day". As a comparison, examine a Bloodclaw Weapon vs. a Voidcrystal weapon. The Bloodclaw increases damage and all, that's nice. It's pretty general and works great IF you have the HP and surges to burn. Against that solo/elite that hits you for big damage on a 4, how much extra damage can you take? Especially if he has artillery, a controller or other buddies chipping away too.

Now look at the Voidcrystal weapon. Hit that big baddie, make him disappear for a round while you get a "free" round to take out his support and/or set up a trap for when he reappears. It's a daily, but then how many BBEGs do you fight in a "day"?

There are situations where either one is just awesome, and others where they're probably not what you want.

 

[malraux]

As for bloodclaw weapons: it's not really the main focus of my point, only an example; but for those who do not know, the pure blinding power that bloodclaw offers is truly amazing (or ridiculous, depending on your perspective). It might as well be called "add 20-35% damage for free". The HP loss is a joke; it's seriously a joke. There is no reason any melee character should not be using this weapon; it's that good. The only thing that comes close to giving it a run for its money is its sister, reckless. But honestly taking almost no damage each hit is still better than +10% enemy chance to hit you.

Though this is kinda a personal attack, you blowing molehills into mountains is kinda the point of the thread. Anyway, if the HP loss to the character is a joke, then why isn't the extra damage a joke as well. Assuming 50% missing, the extra damage is equal on both the player and the monster. Now I realize that some classes hit somewhat better, but IME, that's the rogue who clearly benefits from subtle weapons way way more than bloodclaw. Admittedly I haven't played with a huge number of groups, but no one in my groups would willing grant ongoing no save damage every combat. At best I could see this being overpowered with a barbarian, maybe, but really I see that as a way to help out defenders who sometimes lag on the damage output.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

As for bloodclaw weapons: it's not really the main focus of my point, only an example;

the only thing I see it as an example of is you don't like all of every book...welcome to role-playing...house rules were invented 15 mins after the first book was sold becuse noone anywhere ever liked every rule...

but for those who do not know, the pure blinding power that bloodclaw offers is truly amazing (or ridiculous, depending on your perspective). It might as well be called "add 20-35% damage for free". The HP loss is a joke; it's seriously a joke.

how is takeing damage free??? It is good for 3 classes Fighter (although not ideal there are better) Avenger (high AC and low striker damage equal this was made for them) and Barbarian (although dangerus, most barb have surviability issues if played to gun ho)

There is no reason any melee character should not be using this weapon; it's that good. The only thing that comes close to giving it a run for its money is its sister, reckless. But honestly taking almost no damage each hit is still better than +10% enemy chance to hit you.

How about the example from my first post...page 1 the avenger witht he weapon with high crit and the property that gives an extra basic on crits...
How about DUilest weapon for rouges
Oath blades for fighters
Luck blades...heck for anyone but avengers this is a massive help in landing big shots...
Have you seen Battle Crazed and Battlemasters...both are just as crazy good (Incase you havent battle crazed at +3 adds +2d6 to all damage when you are bloodied, and battlemaster lets you recall encounter powers)
What about Footpads friend



It sounds to me like your group ran into what mine did a few years ago. We had a player named Ron who built the most awsome character, he had all these items that worked great togather...when he died he made a new character that was almost identical with only minor changes...at the same time in another game we were running my friend Kurt was trying to get all the same items.
It didn't last long with us becuse we grew board with cookie cutter characters, and the PCs (not me running the game) said no to re doing very simalar characters...in the end every character he made was full of win...ok wait let me take that back all except one big failone...he didn't need to do the same thing over and over he just had to find new synergies...thaat was part of the fun for him.
I just wish he hadn't moved for his job, he was a great player...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Anyway, if the HP loss to the character is a joke, then why isn't the extra damage a joke as well. Assuming 50% missing, the extra damage is equal on both the player and the monster. Now I realize that some classes hit somewhat better, but IME, that's the rogue who clearly benefits from subtle weapons way way more than bloodclaw.

I bet that part of the problem is othe issues...I bet we are looking at a high att bonus High AC Avenger...in fact he probly has the best AC in game and eaither has the best or tied for the best att bonus...but does low damage. Becuse he doesn't get hit as often as say a rouge and he hit much more often then said rouge (oath for the win, even IF the att rolls are even). But he does less damage then the rouge, so this is a bigger increase % wise.

I doubt the paliden or Swordmage with Bloodclaw is the prob...I bet the Barbarian with blood claw spends mor ethen half the fight bloodied (or worse)...but the avenger has High HP and AC for a striker and normaly an above 60% hit rate...this is a perfect storm...

 

[Mallus]

I doubt the paliden or Swordmage with Bloodclaw is the prob...

I find that a Bloodclaw weapon helps make my paladin a credible threat in melee. He certainly doesn't outshine the strikers, though.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I find that a Bloodclaw weapon helps make my paladin a credible threat in melee. He certainly doesn't outshine the strikers, though.

something i found a long time ago (just look at my screen name) is powergamers will ALWAYS find something to abuse...taking away everything they can abuse weakens everyone...and in doing so still keeps the power gamers ahead, but at the cost of normal non optimizers now having to bend over backwards to fit the bans...

always expect if you TRY to find the best you will if you don't you might...but most likely not...

Bloodclaw by itself is fine...if a PC build is way too out of wack talk to them say "please lower X" don't come on the boards and Say "Magic items don't work"

 

[FireLance]

Since bloodclaw was the example, I will say this -- I have an avenger that has asked for a bloodclaw and while I'm currently planning on giving it to him, I'd be lying if I said it didn't make me nervous. This has nothing to do with the item, but with the player. I know from playing a Warden with a bunch of area effect attacks and a bloodclaw weapon just how devastating it can be... both to the enemy and to me. If I catch 4 guys in my burst with the weapon, that's 12 damage to me right there. Do that a few rounds in a row and it doesn't matter if the enemy has been hitting me or not.

Well, depending on how strictly you interpret "Use this power before making a melee attack on your turn", you could rule that the bloodclaw weapon doesn't work with close attacks. This way, you can only deal the extra damage more than once per round with an action point and/or a power that allow you to make multiple melee attacks with the same weapon (such as rain of blows).

 

[Goumindong]

JoeGKushner: That works when you don't have a PC with access to ritual magic, but thanks to Enchant Item, anyone can have anything they want at any time (post-level 4).

So long as the item is their level or lower AND they have the cash to pay for it

Its been my experience that the majority of gold players have is spent shoring up item slots they don't have filled with lower level items and buying rituals.

You only have enough gold to buy each character 1 equal level item per 5 levels anyway, so it really should not be an issue.[each level you get an item at +1, +2, +3, and +4 and enough gold and treasure to buy 1 lvl +0 item, this is for an entire party].

This means that not only are purchased/created items hard on your wallet, but they're going to be a bit behind everyone else to boot.

RE: Solitaries.

Solitaries are bad because they skip the daily action/resource economy. They do not use any resources whatsoever.