What do YOU plan on doing with Daggerheart?

I was using hyprbole for effect.

But my point stands: DH characters are simpler and have fewer moving parts than the majority of 5E characters (some of the simpler subclasses are probably equivalent).
I can't agree it's that clear cut.

A level 1 Daggerheart character has:
  • Stats
  • Two ancestry abilities
  • One community ability
  • One class Hope ability (Costs 3 hope to use)
  • One to two (mostly two) class abilities
  • One to two (mostly two) subclass abilities
  • Two domain abilities (which may be one ability, one spell, or even two or three spells if one of your class's two domains is the Codex domain (wizards and bards); each domain gets three options at level 1 so it's pick two from six)
  • Two experiences (quasi-skills).
Each time they level up they gain some toughness, one domain ability from one of their two domains, and get two choices which may be passive, or even multiclassing or extra domain abilities.

And then the resolution mechanics are more complex; you have two pools to spend from (Hope and Stress - roughly Mana and Stamina) and you have success with consequences mechanics.
 

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I can't agree it's that clear cut.

A level 1 Daggerheart character has:
  • Stats
  • Two ancestry abilities
  • One community ability
  • One class Hope ability (Costs 3 hope to use)
  • One to two (mostly two) class abilities
  • One to two (mostly two) subclass abilities
  • Two domain abilities (which may be one ability, one spell, or even two or three spells if one of your class's two domains is the Codex domain (wizards and bards); each domain gets three options at level 1 so it's pick two from six)
  • Two experiences (quasi-skills).
Each time they level up they gain some toughness, one domain ability from one of their two domains, and get two choices which may be passive, or even multiclassing or extra domain abilities.

And then the resolution mechanics are more complex; you have two pools to spend from (Hope and Stress - roughly Mana and Stamina) and you have success with consequences mechanics.
I mean, we can all be disingenuous about things by writing them down in a way that makes them look different to what they, and simplifying them in a way that is basically misleading. This is a skill the people of the internet have been shown to possess!

It's not really helpful though, is it?

It's absolutely clear-cut that a Daggerheart character is more straightforward. It's not possible to argue they don't have fewer moving parts, except by misrepresenting stuff.

Like for example:

"Each time they level up they gain some toughness"

What a long-winded and imho misleading way to say "Their two damage thresholds increase by 1 each" (because they literally use your level in them). Your damage thresholds are, let us be clear, level + a value from your armour - for example, I think Chainmail is 7/15, so if you're level 3, wearing chainmail, they're 10/18. That's it. It seems like you're trying to make it sound like they gain HP each level, but they don't.

And I note you don't list the abilities a D&D character might get (perhaps because it varies so widely by class/species/Feat/etc.). There are literally L1 D&D characters who have more abilities than L5 DH ones.

Also you must be well aware that DH characters are more frontloaded than D&D characters, and only go from levels 1-10, rather than levels 1-20. They've already got their subclass, which D&D PCs don't get until L3.
 

I mean, we can all be disingenuous about things by writing them down in a way that makes them look different to what they, and simplifying them in a way that is basically misleading. This is a skill the people of the internet have been shown to possess!

It's not really helpful though, is it?

It's absolutely clear-cut that a Daggerheart character is more straightforward. It's not possible to argue they don't have fewer moving parts, except by misrepresenting stuff.
I mean we can all be disingenuous and cherry pick to pretend that moving parts don't exist or that single dimensional moving parts don't move at all. And we can assume good faith and that people can have different opinions they can back up with facts!

As for fewer moving parts? Each part moves more and in more complex ways thanks to a more complex success-with-consequences core mechanic. And Daggerheart characters never in play get to the point of simplistic fights where you walk up to the enemy and play patty-cake, just hititng and missing until one side runs out of hit points and spend twenty minutes between turns. Instead they do mechanically more engaging things, all having hope and stress to spend.

To use an analogy you are saying that D&D has more moving parts because it has three simple pendulums while Daggerheart has a double pendulum. I'm saying the double pendulum has more complex movement.
Like for example:

"Each time they level up they gain some toughness"

What a long-winded and imho misleading way to say "Their two damage thresholds increase by 1 each" (because they literally use your level in them). Your damage thresholds are, let us be clear, level + a value from your armour - for example, I think Chainmail is 7/15, so if you're level 3, wearing chainmail, they're 10/18. That's it. It seems like you're trying to make it sound like they gain HP each level, but they don't.
One of us is being misleading by pretending that because they have the same name hit points are the same thing in both games. And it's not me misleading here by cherry picking one part of the damage-taking mechanics and pretending that it is equivalent to almost the whole of the damage-taking mechanics in the other game. Please stop first misrepresenting by pretending things are equivalent when they aren't and then ironically accusing me of misrepresenting things because I put what I mean that includes the context of the mechanics.
And I note you don't list the abilities a D&D character might get (perhaps because it varies so widely by class/species/Feat/etc.). There are literally L1 D&D characters who have more abilities than L5 DH ones.
In order to do that we would have to get into the subject of ribbon abilities which Daggerheart is fairly free of.

In terms of cruft on the character sheet D&D 5e easily has more than Daggerheart. You don't have 17 skills in Daggerheart for starters or even stats on a 1-20 range in addition to modifiers. In terms of meaningful choices both in terms of character creation and in play I'd consider Daggerheart characters more equivalent to half-casters in 5e.
Also you must be well aware that DH characters are more frontloaded than D&D characters, and only go from levels 1-10, rather than levels 1-20. They've already got their subclass, which D&D PCs don't get until L3.
And you must be aware that unless you multiclass D&D 5e characters are on rails. Your subclass is, other than feats (you get every four levels) and spells (which many casters can switch with just a rest, making their spells their equipment rather than part of who they are) for most characters the last mechanical choice you make. Whereas in Daggerheart you make multiple choices every single time you level up. You must also be aware that in addition to hit points it is common for D&D classes (especially among the non-casters) to get one ability per level (again on rails) after level 1 - whereas Daggerheart gives one extra domain ability and wherever you spent your two ticks, which can vary. You actually get multiple choices every level rather than a choice every four levels and a given ability every level.

No I don't consider Daggerheart inherently more front loaded than D&D
 

I ordered it to read, enjoy the art, and probably never play it (my group isn't that experimental). I am very curious about the character sheet design and card implementation, and may use it for teaching other RPGs.
If people haven't seen it, this is very slick. The character sheet is two columns, and they have a sheet you can cut in half and then place to the left and the right of the sheet. The add-on tells you about what the items on the character sheet mean. This is a very slick idea!
 

I mean we can all be disingenuous and cherry pick to pretend that moving parts don't exist or that single dimensional moving parts don't move at all. And we can assume good faith and that people can have different opinions they can back up with facts!

As for fewer moving parts? Each part moves more and in more complex ways thanks to a more complex success-with-consequences core mechanic. And Daggerheart characters never in play get to the point of simplistic fights where you walk up to the enemy and play patty-cake, just hititng and missing until one side runs out of hit points and spend twenty minutes between turns. Instead they do mechanically more engaging things, all having hope and stress to spend.

To use an analogy you are saying that D&D has more moving parts because it has three simple pendulums while Daggerheart has a double pendulum. I'm saying the double pendulum has more complex movement.

One of us is being misleading by pretending that because they have the same name hit points are the same thing in both games. And it's not me misleading here by cherry picking one part of the damage-taking mechanics and pretending that it is equivalent to almost the whole of the damage-taking mechanics in the other game. Please stop first misrepresenting by pretending things are equivalent when they aren't and then ironically accusing me of misrepresenting things because I put what I mean that includes the context of the mechanics.

In order to do that we would have to get into the subject of ribbon abilities which Daggerheart is fairly free of.

In terms of cruft on the character sheet D&D 5e easily has more than Daggerheart. You don't have 17 skills in Daggerheart for starters or even stats on a 1-20 range in addition to modifiers. In terms of meaningful choices both in terms of character creation and in play I'd consider Daggerheart characters more equivalent to half-casters in 5e.

And you must be aware that unless you multiclass D&D 5e characters are on rails. Your subclass is, other than feats (you get every four levels) and spells (which many casters can switch with just a rest, making their spells their equipment rather than part of who they are) for most characters the last mechanical choice you make. Whereas in Daggerheart you make multiple choices every single time you level up. You must also be aware that in addition to hit points it is common for D&D classes (especially among the non-casters) to get one ability per level (again on rails) after level 1 - whereas Daggerheart gives one extra domain ability and wherever you spent your two ticks, which can vary. You actually get multiple choices every level rather than a choice every four levels and a given ability every level.

No I don't consider Daggerheart inherently more front loaded than D&D

The decision space for a DH character leveling up may approach a half-caster in 5e, maybe. You’ve got feats & ASIs and spell choices and specializations and subclasses and on and on.

DH is clearly closer to the PF2E/4e - 5e side of the character growth crunch continuum then something like DW, but not by a ton. And they’ve managed to give decision space for a bunch of different builds in fairly limited Domains to reduce the change of ability / niche duplication. I’d love to see a Healing focused Wizard and a smiting focused Seraph running around together - some cool world-building notes there.
 



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