What Do You Think Of As "Modern TTRPG Mechanics"?

[Parmandur]

Specifically, the claim was that the tropes they emulate are those of "D&D-derived fantasy". They can't have been designed to emulate something that would only come into being once it was derived from their existence.

Clearly not when he uses the phrase D&D-inspired heroic fantasy, which is an entirely different beast than the heroic fantasy that inspired D&D.

To be honest, I saw that as a bit of a mksstatementof the thesis, because classic D&D is focused on narrative genre emulation...of classic Sword & Sorcery tropes.

 

[Willie the Duck]

coughs

Oh, look at this Appendix in the DMG, showing the fiction that inspired the design of D&D...

You might have read that in reverse.

 

[Reynard]

To be honest, I saw that as a bit of a mksstatementof the thesis, because classic D&D is focused on narrative genre emulation...of classic Sword & Sorcery tropes.

I don't think that is true. it is based on vibes emulation of those Appendix N books, because that is the inspirational litertaure for the creators and early adopters, but there are almost nogame design mechanics that emulate those things. The game mechanics are simple wargame mechanics distilled to single unit heroes.

This has been a core problem with D&D since its beginning: its mechanics do not match its intended narrative in any meaningful way. The most explicit examples are D&D fiction novels themselves: the narratives might name check some spells and things, but the actual mechanisms in the stories are very rarely representative of how the game plays. And for good reason.

The less said about litRPG the better.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So what 'genre' are we talking about here? I think those mechanics certainly scaffold a particular playstyle, but I'm not convinced that's the same thing as a 'genre' in the way that people don't want 'genre enforcing mechanics' are using the term.

I also think there's a lot of confusing overlap between how people use the word genre and the word narrative to describe aspects of RPG design. So there's that.

All I want from mechanics is that they help me model a thing that exists in the setting in which the game takes place. I don't want or need them to model genre (unless it's a supers game), and I don't want or need them to support the narrative or make the PCs more important than other people. That's the Players' job. I just want the stats for this thing over there or that event going on.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't think that is true. it is based on vibes emulation of those Appendix N books, because that is the inspirational litertaure for the creators and early adopters, but there are almost nogame design mechanics that emulate those things. The game mechanics are simple wargame mechanics distilled to single unit heroes.

This has been a core problem with D&D since its beginning: its mechanics do not match its intended narrative in any meaningful way. The most explicit examples are D&D fiction novels themselves: the narratives might name check some spells and things, but the actual mechanisms in the stories are very rarely representative of how the game plays. And for good reason.

The less said about litRPG the better.

I don't see a problem here. Use the mechanics and create whatever you want over the course of play as desired. Why should the mechanics have anything to do with "intended narrative"? What does that even mean?

 

[Reynard]

I don't see a problem here. Use the mechanics and create whatever you want over the course of play as desired. Why should the mechanics have anything to do with "intended narrative"? What does that even mean?

I don't think it is a problem either. I like games as games. But the argument being made was that D&D's mechanics were built to emulate Conan et al, and I don't think that is true at all. The milieu was, but not the rules.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't think it is a problem either. I like games as games. But the argument being made was that D&D's mechanics were built to emulate Conan et al, and I don't think that is true at all. The milieu was, but not the rules.

Amusingly, we use games for different purposes but see the same way in this case.

 

[Fenris-77]

I think we'll need to be deliberate and specific in order to have a useful discussion here. People are throwing adjectives around like kids in a snowball fight and someone is going to snow in their eyes.

classic D&D is focused on narrative genre emulation...of classic Sword & Sorcery tropes.

There's a lot going on there in the bolded term. Genre emulation is a thing, sure but what work is 'narrative' doing on top of that? I ask because the word narrative comes pre-loaded with a bunch of other ideas when it comes to discussing RPG mechanics, and we are discussing mechanics specifically here.

I don't think that is true. it is based on vibes emulation of those Appendix N books, because that is the inspirational litertaure for the creators and early adopters, but there are almost nogame design mechanics that emulate those things. The game mechanics are simple wargame mechanics distilled to single unit heroes.

This has been a core problem with D&D since its beginning: its mechanics do not match its intended narrative in any meaningful way.

That pesky word again! I think it's actually a somewhat bold claim that D&D, as it was originally conceived, had anything at all like an 'intended narrative', and even bolder that the mechanics somehow don't match it This suggests that 'narrative' was the essential or central thing that D&D (and this RPGs more broadly) are supposed to be 'about' and that the designers of D&D somehow missed the boat. This seems to make a lot of assumptions about what the core task or goal of RPGs are and what the job of the mechanics of RPGs are supposed to be doing.

The word emulation is also, IMO, being in used in a very broad way here and causing some mischief of its own. One barrel of monkeys at a time I suppose.

 

[Reynard]

I think we'll need to be deliberate and specific in order to have a useful discussion here. People are throwing adjectives around like kids in a snowball fight and someone is going to snow in their eyes.

There's a lot going on there in the bolded term. Genre emulation is a thing, sure but what work is 'narrative' doing on top of that? I ask because the word narrative comes pre-loaded with a bunch of other ideas when it comes to discussing RPG mechanics, and we are discussing mechanics specifically here.

That pesky word again! I think it's actually a somewhat bold claim that D&D, as it was originally conceived, had anything at all like an 'intended narrative', and even bolder that the mechanics somehow don't match it This suggests that 'narrative' was the essential or central thing that D&D (and this RPGs more broadly) are supposed to be 'about' and that the designers of D&D somehow missed the boat. This seems to make a lot of assumptions about what the core task or goal of RPGs are and what the job of the mechanics of RPGs are supposed to be doing.

The word emulation is also, IMO, being in used in a very broad way here and causing some mischief of its own. One barrel of monkeys at a time I suppose.

D&D had a pretty clear "intended narrative" -- go into the dungeon and find treasure, trying not to die along the way. Byt the time AD&D came around, that "intended narrative" had broadened to include building fotresses and acquiring followers. I think you are protesting a little too much at the use of the term. RPGs produce narratives, and the game design leans toward certain kinds of those narratives.

But in either case, my point was that aside from perhaps the whole "Vancian casting" thing (which never looked a lot like Vance, and EGG admitted it was mostly designed from a game blance perspective) D&D did not create mechanics to make the game play like reading Conan felt. That was all vibes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

D&D had a pretty clear "intended narrative" -- go into the dungeon and find treasure, trying not to die along the way. Byt the time AD&D came around, that "intended narrative" had broadened to include building fotresses and acquiring followers. I think you are protesting a little too much at the use of the term. RPGs produce narratives, and the game design leans toward certain kinds of those narratives.

But in either case, my point was that aside from perhaps the whole "Vancian casting" thing (which never looked a lot like Vance, and EGG admitted it was mostly designed from a game blance perspective) D&D did not create mechanics to make the game play like reading Conan felt. That was all vibes.

What mechanics would you even need to force that kind of play?