What do you think when DM introduces old PC as an NPC?

[William Ronald]

It depends on what the NPC's role is.

As a DM I have introduced my favorite, typically high-level, characters as NPCs on several occasions. They have always had the ability to "outshine" my PCs, but high-level characters tend to do that to lower level ones. My NPC/PCs are typically advisors or catalysts who make short cameos into my adventures on occasion. It is one of the privileges of DM'ing; you get to play a cherished character just a little bit more!

I would not advise on introducing a higher level NPC as a part of the party. I have never seen this done, but I cannot see it ending well.

Later!

I voted that I would like to see what a DM is doing, but I have seen several bad examples of DMs using old PCs to dominate a campaign.

I agree that the role is crucial. However, I have seen DMs introduce NPCs that seemed to be deliberately designed to outshine specific PCs -- who worked hard for their power and reputation. One DM I knew even kept revising the former PCs classes because he was unclear of how exactly his character should have grown from its earlier levels. Essentially, at times it felt like the party existed to help the NPC. This is the opposite of the concept of PCs as heroes. (THe same DM would also create NEW NPCs who were meant to be the focus of a series of adventures. Or altered an old NPC essentially beyond recognition. Let's just say that continuity and verisimilitude ultimately became meaningless -- which is one reason I left that game.)

Mind you, I think this can be done well if a former PC is used as an advisor but not as a protagonist. If Obi Wan Kenobi had been at the peak of his powers in the Star Wars movies, Luke Skywalker would have just been along for the ride. This is not to say that a setting can't have powerful NPCs who can handle threats beyond those that the PCs can currently face. (Even then, you can still have the PCs involved in some way, such as performing a related mission that wins them the accolades of potential friends and allies.) However, I think that every PC deserves a chance to shine.

So, my advice is to consider how to use a former PC. It may not always be appropriate. Several of my PCs are from a homebrew that I no longer play in, and ultimately rejected. So, I will not be using those PCs. I might be inspired to use some of the same concepts (ranger/wizard, powerful, knowledgeable and diplomatic wizard, wise priest, et cetera.) Perhaps being inspired by an old PC might help in creating NPCs. Alternately, a DM might make an old PC a historical figure whose deeds inspire later generations.

 

[tetsujin28]

I went with "Oh no!! Eek!!", but even that doesn't express the repulsion I'd feel strongly enough

 

[Thomas Percy]

I have a better one: the former 20-something adventurers would do it themselves, but they're too busy playing bingo at the retired adventurers home!

1.
20th level heroes are still busy.
One of them is a ruler of land of continous battled.
One of them is a commander of dwarven army in the war against orogs.
One of them is a avatar of his godness.
Two of them are archmages and they are directly involved in a new camapaign plot at the opposite side then new low level PCs.

You wrote about Elminster, archmage from windmill who is so bored that he spoils fun of low level PCs. Elminster's paragon - Gandalf was not an idiot.

2.
Quests (precisely questions to answer) for high and low level PCs can be the same. The way of finding the answers is different. eg.
Two rulers, male and female are fighting for their son. Question : "why?"
Wiz21: Gate, summon avatar, answer.
Brd1: a lot of diplomacy and spycraft.

 

[DragonLancer]

I've done this on a couple of occasions when I brought one or two old characters (not mine I'll add) in as NPC's.

The last time I did this, they came in to help the characters in a (planned) extremely tough fight. The party finished the bad guys off but with an easy time due to this character turning up. He was there for two sessions giving some background as both he and the party were following a similar goal. After they shared info he went on his way to see what he could do and the party continued on their path but with a bit more info. The old player said character isn't in my gaming group anymore but those who knew this character from back then enjoyed having him make a guest appearance.

So, yeah, I go with the see what the DM does with the character before grumbling.

 

[demiurge1138]

I'm inherently neutral on the subject. When I was but a wee DM, when I made the transition my character stayed in the party, by the players' request - they liked him, and none of them wanted to play a wizard. He eventually left them, to their dismay, but still was an NPC in the more traditional sense - roleplaying interactions, plot hooks, that sort of thing.

Since then, I've brought him and one other old character of mine in a game as NPCs, but definately not in the limelight. They're just like any other NPC, except they happen to have been played by me at one point.

Of course, there was a game I (briefly) played in in which a DMNPC was so blatantly awful it was just nauseating... So in the right hands, it can work. Otherwise, it can be as bad as any other tool of a poor DM.

Demiurge out.

 

[shaylon]

. In other words I certainly don't want to run into a Bresden Black in a future campaign....

Why not? He has saved your a$$ what, 3 times, and you play a Cleric that can't turn undead? Hey, where are we heading next week? Oh yeah, the castle ruins that are filled with undead! Should be fun.

To get to Chris' question, I think it is a great idea, especially in our specific situation. We don't know the old PC's because we didn't play them. Even if they were one of our old PC's or someone we had heard of I really don't see a problem with it unless the DM has something to prove. If a DM is just bringing one of his old characters back to relive some past glory then that can be annoying. What you have done (I assume we are talking the Valenar here) has been fine.

If I might suggest something I wouldn't be too afraid of him outshining the players in this case. Obviously he has some power, and he has been around a long time. I wouldn't want him running us through the adventure while we stood around of course but I expect he is quite capable and if he is portayed as such then I don't have an issue at all with that.

-Shay

 

[jdrakeh]

I went with "Oh no!! Eek!!", but even that doesn't express the repulsion I'd feel strongly enough

Me, too, but it seems that those of us who have witnessed the true evil of GMPCs are in the minority here

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

There is no options for 'it depends on the DM'.

I regularly use prior PC's as NPCs.. and on occasions vice versa.... To me its more a cast of characters sans stats that I can draw upon. Often using a different name, but the underlying character conceit is the same.

One of my favorites, Blaine Deathedge, has existed as both PC and NPC in Shadowrun, CP2020, Twilight 2000, and SW {WEG}. His newest incarnation is in a PBEM Supers game.

Of course, my gaming style is bit more relaxed when it comes to helpfull NPC stats.. they tend to be able to do just enough to redirect the party whenever the party wanders into dangerous/unplotted territory.

{damn, that sounded alot like railroading didn't it? Eh.. oh well. Had that thread before }

When a DM I don't normally play under introduces a prior PC, I tend to go with the wait and see attitude.. thats assuming I notice it is a prior PC!

 

[DonTadow]

I love introducing ex pcs as npcs in my campaigns. My players often wonder when i'm going to introduce some of their favorite npcs during a campaign. Also, my former pcs are more fleshed out than some of my campaign generated pcs because the players themselves have previous contact with them and know their tendancies and personalities. I often will play a long-term npc for my campaign as a pc if i can find a game i can sit in. This helps me flesh out certain background elements.

Now, that said, i dont think the problem is dm's former pcs turning into npcs. THe problem is when dms turn ANY npc into their own npc. I"ve experienced the horrors of this in my former group and it stopped me from playing for a bit a few years ago. One DM had a wizard called Elleron. He was suppose to be our level, but hehad his own tower and controlled wildmagic and knew every spell in the phb. Most battles would be Elleron blood bath's unless he allowed us to participate. It got really boring really fast. Another DM had Kane, a tielfling fighter with a large mask that could fly, fire light beams from his eyes and read the minds of everyone. Imagine partying with superman and you're the wondertwins, that pretty much what it felt like.

Thats why I always make sure to have my own npcs be what they are suppose to be, side characters at best. In combat I don't control any npc whom is not an enemy, I give the character to a player and let them control him. This also assures that I don't fudge anything because I like the npcs.

 

[FickleGM]

I voted - Oh no!! Eeek!! - but have a few disclaimers:

1) This is an initial reaction to a GMPC that was formerly a PC (of the current DM), but I guess that my reaction could be soothed by a good DM.

2) I have only had this happen once, which is all I have to work with. The DM, brought in a character that had been a PC when I was the DM. Quotes like - "you are in awe" were common. My character did try to "punch him in the face and burn down his house", but unfortunately he was defeated (my character was allowed to live, and later killed a fellow party member over a trivial dispute - yes, this is one of the reasons that I make a better DM than a Player).

3) I have never run a campaign that I actually played in, so I have never done this myself (and the above example was the only campaign that I played in and had previously DMed).

4) I have had some reoccurring NPCs that could easily be considered GMPCs, but I try my darndest not to outshine the PCs. Currently, I am running five campaigns (two with three players, one with two-three players, one with one-two players and one with only one player) and only two of the campaigns feature GMPCs (the one-on-one with my wife and the post-apocolyptic with three players). The other three campaigns, although having small groups, do not yet have an NPC that would be classified as this (although, two of them have NPCs in place that could evolve into this).

*My definition of a GMPC is any NPC that occurs in each session as a member of the party that is accepted by the other players as an equal member (as opposed to a short-term partner or a henchman/follower).