What does it mean to polymorph into a different creature type?

[Pielorinho]

As we know, now when yoiu polymorph (or wildshape) into a creature, you assume that creature's type. What significance does that have?

Are you subject to spells that target a particular type? (e.g., you baleful polymorph the lich into a kitty cat. Can you now cast animal friendship on the lich?)

Do you gain any qualities of the type? (e.g., you wildshape into a plant. Are you immune to critical hits?)

Does the glossary description of the type apply to you? (i.e., you polymorph into an elemental. Do you breathe?)

Are there any clear guidelines?

Daniel

 

[Plane Sailing]

My understanding is this

1. No animal friendship spell now! but basically yes, you could cast any spell that targets kitty cats on him.

2. Yes, you gain the qualities of the type

3. This is my assumption.

Basically, if "type" means anything, I think it means everything. That is certainly the way I intend to play it. I think that there are still limitations on what you can polymorph into (e.g. no Outsiders unless you are an Outsider)


You are certainly no longer subjected to spells which are keyed to your "old" type. In 3.0 you could hold person a wizard polymorphed into a sparrow and it would work. In 3.5 you couldn't hold person him because he is currently an animal.

Chapter and verse? I can't give you that in the new books, so my current view is subject to review if they've clearly ruled differntly somewhere.

Just my take at the moment

Cheers

 

[youspoonybard]

Would you get low-light vision as a cat, then? Most Animals have 'em, as well as the plants. Andy said that that was available on the 3.5 message boards.

If that's the case, that makes sense. Low-Light vision isn't overpowering, but blindsight and even scent, are more so. I think that would be a happy medium.

And, can you awaken yourself? My question.

 

[Pielorinho]

My understanding is this

1. No animal friendship spell now! but basically yes, you could cast any spell that targets kitty cats on him.

Craziness! So, new druid tactic when faced by bad psionicists and spell-like-ability-using bad guys:

1) Baleful Polymorph on them to turn them into an eagle.
2) Knock them out.
3) Bind and gag them.
4) Spend a day turning them into your animal friend. Assuming they made their will save earlier, you now have a super-powerful animal companion.

Whoopee!

Actually, I don't think this would work: the "animal" definition in the glossary specifically states that no creature with an intelligence greater than 2 can be considered an animal. What does this mean for a druid wildshaping into an animal, however -- do they not actually take on the animal type?

So confusing. . . . I really wish they'd not changed these rules.

Daniel

 

[Plane Sailing]

sort-of response to Spoony...

I'm completely happy with the idea that wildshaped druids get the extraordinary attack forms of their shape but not other extraordinary things like senses - I justify this by saying that attacks and mobility are just based on the shape, but the special senses like Scent and Blindsight rely more upon the brains interpretation of previously unknown sensory data. The druid thinks "hey, my nose is going -crazy-" but can't interpret that.

Then I'd allow scent and blindsight feats to enable the druid to interpret those senses.

The ruling is for balance reasons, but I think my justification is sound.

Cheers

 

[youspoonybard]

Plane Sailing -

I agree with the rules too. I play a druid, and blindsight was too powerful. Scent was incredibly useful too. Plus, you still get the racial bonuses of the animal you turn into, to counter the people who claim your new form isn't helping whatsoever. I'd also allow the feats, and am considering taking Blindsight (but don't have room for it till level 15 or so, argh).

Any chance if awaken has a clause saying you can't awaken yourself?

 

[Nareau]

Andy Collins has specifically said that polymorphing grants you a new type. He said this in response to people asking about a druid wildshaping.

By one interpretation, you might argue that druids can't wildshape into animals, because they would be an animal with an Int > 2. By another interpretation, you might argue that a druid's Int should be *reduced* to 2 whenever they wildshape. But both of these ideas are absurd.

I really like the idea of awakening a polymorphed creature. I'm imagining a colony of Illithids capturing a 9th level druid. They set up an assembly-line where they get baleful p-morphed into a cat, Awakened by the druid, then have the p-morph dispelled.

Sigh. I've avoided adding my voice to the "3.5 sUxx0rZ" crowds up to this point. But I think the "type-changing polymorph" is probably the worst change I've seen. I'm pretty tempted to rule-0 this one right out.

Spider

 

[Pielorinho]

More questions:

-The polymorph spell caps the HD of the turned-into creature at 15 HD. Wildshape says, "This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here." It goes on to say, "the new form's Hit Dice can't exceed the character's druid level." I assume that wildshape removes the HD cap? Otherwise, the abgility to wildshape into a huge elemental isn't particularly useful, since huge elementals have 16 HD.

-Polymorph doesn't mention gaining the feats of the new form. I'd assume that this means you'd don't gain those feats, except for how bloody complicated this can make things.

For example, I want to wild shape into a rhinoceros. Perfectly reasonable, right? I get the creature's attack routines: Gore +13 melee for 2d6 +12.

Except I notice that Rhinos normally get the feat Improved Natural Attack (gore). So I look that up, and discover that "the creature's natural attacks are more dangerous than its size and type would otherwise dictate." I see that the feat causes a natural weapon's damage to increase by one step -- in this case, from 1d8 to 2d6.

Do I get this feat? If not, does my attack do 1d8+12 or 2d6+12 damage? Am I really going to have to go to this much work to calculate attacks and damages when I wildshape? Do I need to watch out, similarly, for weapon finesse, weapon focus, multiattack, and improved natural armor.

Gah! I'm very happy with the Masters of the Wild Wildshape rules, and very unhappy with these.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

Andy Collins has specifically said that polymorphing grants you a new type. He said this in response to people asking about a druid wildshaping.

Yep: "The subject's creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form." p 263, bottom of first paragraph.

Oh -- and in case you weren't aware of how good the druid-awakening factory is, there's nothing I can see that prevents a character from going through it over and over and over, gaining +1d3 Cha and +2 HD each time as instantaneous effects.

And if you're playing a dumb barbarian (or really any dumb character) and you've always wanted to be smart, shell out the moolah to have a druid run you through the factory: substitute 3d6 for your current Int score. Do it until the score is good -- heck, each time you do it, you get tougher (+2 HD) and awesomer (+1d3 Cha).

Errata, anyone?

Daniel

 

[Nareau]

I was under the impression that a 3.5 Awakened animal was no longer an animal. I thought it gets turned into a magical beast.

Spider