D&D (2024) 2024 Player's Handbook preview: "New Spells"

[UngeheuerLich]

Shadowblade does not work well with the class, and niether does Haste, but the blade Cantrips do. Bladeward also works very well on a Bladesinger (probably better than on any other character who is not a Genasi). Finally, Mending works better on a Bladesinger than on another character.

I am not sure what other spells you are talking about.

You know, I was talking about the initial release. Not the revised one. Definitely not about 2024.

Please read the post I responded to. Also not my use of past tense.

 

[ECMO3]

For the Bladesinger: if you're playing one and just wading into combat, you're not playing to the class' strengths. You don't do anywhere near the damage of a character who's designed to do that from the start.

With Two weapon fighting and the bladesinger extra attack allowing you to use Cantrips you are keeping up with most classes. With the way Cantrips scale and Song of Victory it keeps you right there. Not the Highest damage build, but certainly "near" what a Fighter, Ranger or Monk are doing and better them some of those builds, with much more defense and much harder to kill (Long Death Monk not withstanding)

The thing with the Blade Cantrips is their scaling keeps you in the same zone and the Bladesinger can cash in on secondary Cantrip damage more effectively than most classes because AOOs are often irrelevant to a Bladesinger and most of the time you want enemies to burn an AOO on you. So most of the time you attack with a blade cantrip you can make it so you will get the secondary damage on a hit either by choosing enemies next to each other or forcing enemy movement for Booming Blade and with the secondary damage you are outrunning most classes.

Bladesinger is most effective as a melee combatant when you are wading into combat with a melee defense spell going, purposely causing AOOs, and encouraging enemies to attack you instead of your other front liners (who don't have as many defenses).

 

[SteveC]

Shadowblade does not work well with the class, and niether does Haste, but the blade Cantrips do. Bladeward also works very well on a Bladesinger (probably better than on any other character who is not a Genasi). Finally, Mending works better on a Bladesinger than on another character.

I am not sure what other spells you are talking about.

I think that any spell requiring concentration is not going to play well with a Bladesinger. I looked at Shadowblade and it just doesn't do enough damage to compare with other spells a Wizard can do.

I'm a little mystified about complaints for the cantrips designed for the Bladesinger. I use them when I have another spell that I'm concentrating on, and they are ... okay. No reason to worry about anything balance-wise.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Sigh.

So you admit that the two classes I'm using as my example are exactly the classes designed to use the spell?

 

[CapnZapp]

So you admit that the two classes I'm using as my example are exactly the classes designed to use the spell?

No, I admit I had to face the realization you haven't listened to anything I was saying and thus I was wasting my time.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It has been revisited in Tasha's cauldron. And had a quality of life change with extra attack. And a change of bladesong usage from 2/short rest to prof bonus per day.
But yes, there was some bad design at work. The bladesinger spells were not well balanced and also did not work well with the class they were designed for.

Back to topic:
RAW, the eldritch knight could not use shield and carry a shield because of hand free requirements.
Maybe the most simple solution would disallow shield to stack with a shield as mage armor does not work with armor.

Then I'd have it start at +3 and add +1 per spell level.
That way it is is not a straight nerf but if you really need more AC, you can use higher level slots.

But this is where Warcaster comes in. It was an optional feat, but it was clearly designed to allow for shield using arcane casters to cast while holding a shield, otherwise it wouldn't have the line "You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands"

That wasn't designed for wizards, Sorcerers or Warlocks, they have their arcane focus and can't use shields.
It wasn't designed for Clerics or Paladins, they can make their shields Divine Focuses.

It was for the Druid, Eldritch Knight, Ranger and Valor Bard. The only casters who start with shields, and were expected to use them.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No, I admit I had to face the realization you haven't listened to anything I was saying and thus I was wasting my time.

You said shield should only work for those the spell was designed for, which is wizards. Before you had even made that point, I had argued that one of the High AC builds you claim are so disruptive is the Bladesinger Wizard.

So square this circle. How is the spell not working as intended, if it is being used by the class it was intended to work with?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

IDK sounds to me like it's Bladesinger that needs some work, more than Shield, but that really ought not to be any surprise. Bladesinger has never been revisited and came in a book that had questionable designs. I mean, I like it well enough, but...

I think that the fact a 1st level spell slot gains effectiveness while other 1st level spells lose relevance is an indicator of poor design IMO. A 1st level Burning Hands is meaningless at 10th level, a 1st level shield likely blocks more attacks at higher levels and costs negligible resources. This is compounded if you aren't running a bunch of MMO style trash encounters EVERY DAY like 5E assumes but few people actually play.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

A monster with counterspell and more slots beats shield every single time,

Why don't you list some of these monsters with counterspell we can organically insert into basically every encounter? This feels like the theoretical Anti-Magic field caster supremacists wave around like the zero to one time a campaign it appears somehow balances things.

a monster with 5 higher on an attack roll compensates for shield every single time.

Give them an extra +5 to hit dummies! Problem solved!

 

[ECMO3]

I think that any spell requiring concentration is not going to play well with a Bladesinger. I looked at Shadowblade and it just doesn't do enough damage to compare with other spells a Wizard can do.

Blur, PEG, Tasha's Otherwordly Guise and Shapechange(Malarith) work great on a Bladesinger. Improved invisibility does too, although you can usually do almost as good with Blur or PEG for a 2nd or 1st level slot (saving the 4th level slot for False Life)

Shadowblade's problem is not the damage, it is that you are using your concentration and not buffing defense. If you want to be a lot more tanky than a Barbarian, Paladin or Fighter you need to be concentrating on something different and defensive.