D&D General What does "magic" mean? [Read carefully, you can't change your vote]

[Hussar]

Well the point is whether something that doesn't use the same systems and connections are the same.

For example D&D arcane or divine magic are connected to a Weave or Aether or something and are under the control of a God of Magic or the deity that crates or grants the effect.

Now if Psionics or Ki comes from something else. If gods cannot manipulate the system of psi or ki and no dirty had domain over psi or ki nor can grant it...
...is it the same as normal magic?

Or can gods control psi and ki. Can Moradin or Zeus give you Psionics or turn you into a monk?

That's the question.

They can't turn you into a wizard either. So, I guess the "source of magic" doesn't really matter then does it?

@Voadam - Thank you for proving my point about AD&D magic item creation. Do you honestly consider those rules? A collection of vague, handwavey, and largely contradictory (how, exactly, does a dwarf, who is severely limited in cleric levels and can never be a wizard, create magic items?

As far as Ki goes, yes, it's just magic by another name. Always has been. Sorry, but, being able to kill with a touch several days after you touched the target is a magical effect. And, I thought healing like that HAD to be magic. Martial healing is a definite no-no and never existed outside of 4e. What do monks shout their fingers back on?

@Mind of tempest - if multiple "types" of magic was a selling point, why have every single alternative magic systems been orphaned as soon as they were published, completely forgotten in any subsequent publication? You have psionics, either in the PHB in 1e or in a nice book in 2e and 3e, and virtually nothing about psionics in the game afterwards. Tome of Magic had Binders and I know of only a single adventure that featured a Binder and that was from Dragon. The entire system vanished as soon as it hit the streets.

So, as a selling point, it seems to be a complete and utter failure.

 

[Minigiant]

This sounds like rather convoluted metaphysical model. Also what that 'something else' is?

Well it is. Some official settings and many homebrew settings are complex supernaturally.

Supernatural features from other dimensions or other power sources might not be in the same connected systems as of normal weave or divinity based magic.

mean monks are based on members of religious organisations, so it would be actually somewhat weird if their powers were completely disconnected from the divine...

No part of the default monk fluff or lore beyond the name and faith suggest their wire-fu is divinely granted.

 

[Minigiant]

They can't turn you into a wizard either. So, I guess the "source of magic" doesn't really matter then does it?

They can turn you into a cleric or warlock. And the God of Magic manages which spells work.

My question is

Can a god in the traditional D&D since stop a Psion from using Psionics from it's source?

Can Zeus turn off a Zeus worshipping Monk's Stunning Fist?

If He Who Shall Not Be Named From Where Should Not Be Said gives a cultist fighter a cursed yellow sword, can Wee Jas drain its magic?

 

[Voadam]

@Voadam - Thank you for proving my point about AD&D magic item creation. Do you honestly consider those rules?

Yes.

I believe most DMs could use these 1e AD&D DMG rules to adjudicate a PC setting up a lab to make a dozen healing potions, and calculate out the costs and time requirements for example.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I think it is very similar, yes.

look I am no expert but ki is supposedly something everyone has and is about as divine as a blade of grass.
there are at least in some works divine ki and even demon ki but it is like the different types of hydrocarbons.

They can't turn you into a wizard either. So, I guess the "source of magic" doesn't really matter then does it?

@Voadam - Thank you for proving my point about AD&D magic item creation. Do you honestly consider those rules? A collection of vague, handwavey, and largely contradictory (how, exactly, does a dwarf, who is severely limited in cleric levels and can never be a wizard, create magic items?

As far as Ki goes, yes, it's just magic by another name. Always has been. Sorry, but, being able to kill with a touch several days after you touched the target is a magical effect. And, I thought healing like that HAD to be magic. Martial healing is a definite no-no and never existed outside of 4e. What do monks shout their fingers back on?

@Mind of tempest - if multiple "types" of magic was a selling point, why have every single alternative magic systems been orphaned as soon as they were published, completely forgotten in any subsequent publication? You have psionics, either in the PHB in 1e or in a nice book in 2e and 3e, and virtually nothing about psionics in the game afterwards. Tome of Magic had Binders and I know of only a single adventure that featured a Binder and that was from Dragon. The entire system vanished as soon as it hit the streets.

So, as a selling point, it seems to be a complete and utter failure.

it has traditionally been an afterthought but it still has its fans and is it so bad to have more options?

also if different types of magic is a bad thing why not just merge the casters all together into one class so then we only have to worry about one caster instead of what five or is it ten these days.

 

[Voadam]

look I am no expert but ki is supposedly something everyone has and is about as divine as a blade of grass.

The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

 

[Mind of tempest]

The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

sort of but you also get it from eating in some area of thought and there can be multiple types and everyone in principle could be trained to use it.

 

[Darth Solo]

"Magic" is synonymous with "supernatural" in classic "Sword & Sorcery" stories. It could be argued that how
superheroes get their powers is also "magical" as in the real world getting bitten by a radioactive spider would
at least harm most people. So what the Celestials did in the Marvel Universe was seed "magic" into human DNA.
And we get the Hulk (instead of Dr. Robert Bruce Banner dying from radiation-induced cancer). We get superhuman
mutants (instead of horribly-deformed infants with a survival rate of 1%). We get the Fantastic Four (instead of
a quartet of humans ripped apart by interstellar radiation).

The "Magic" is Storytelling.

 

[Lanefan]

@Voadam - Thank you for proving my point about AD&D magic item creation. Do you honestly consider those rules? A collection of vague, handwavey, and largely contradictory (how, exactly, does a dwarf, who is severely limited in cleric levels and can never be a wizard, create magic items?

The Dwarf doesn't, by itself.

The Dwarf makes the actual thing - the sword, the staff, whatever - that's to be enchanted, and then gets other people (analagous to real-world sub-contractors) to cast the spells required to enchant it.

@Mind of tempest - if multiple "types" of magic was a selling point, why have every single alternative magic systems been orphaned as soon as they were published, completely forgotten in any subsequent publication? You have psionics, either in the PHB in 1e or in a nice book in 2e and 3e, and virtually nothing about psionics in the game afterwards. Tome of Magic had Binders and I know of only a single adventure that featured a Binder and that was from Dragon. The entire system vanished as soon as it hit the streets.

So, as a selling point, it seems to be a complete and utter failure.

The biggest issue with psionics is and always has been* one of in-game timing. A mind-vs.-mind combat, for example, would in theory happen at the speed of thought^ and thus likely be entirely resolved before a single round of melee had passed.

* - even more so in the older editions that had 1-minute rounds!
^ - and this is what differentiates psionics form sorcery - a socrerer is still going through all the handwaving and incanting (and thus, time) involved in casting a capital-s Spell; a psionicist isn't.

 

[Lanefan]

They can turn you into a cleric or warlock. And the God of Magic manages which spells work.

My question is

Can a god in the traditional D&D since stop a Psion from using Psionics from it's source?

Can Zeus turn off a Zeus worshipping Monk's Stunning Fist?

If He Who Shall Not Be Named From Where Should Not Be Said gives a cultist fighter a cursed yellow sword, can Wee Jas drain its magic?

Can't speak for how anyone else handles divine intervention but in my case it'd be yes, yes, and maybe yes.

The "maybe" in the last answer is because I don't know the relative power difference between HWSNBNFWSNBS and Wee Jas. If HWS... is more powerful Wee Jas probably wouldn't even try, if Wee Jas is more powerful then yes, and if they're equal it'd be situationally dependent.