D&D General What does "magic" mean? [Read carefully, you can't change your vote]

[Voadam]

Pretending that psionics isn't magic isn't "rich and varied" it's just burying the lede. It's pretty much only D&D that tries to quantify different kinds of "magic" like this. Genre fiction generally doesn't. You just have "magic" and that's it.

Superhero fiction comes to mind as often having magic be distinct from other super powers.

Pretending that you need fifteen different kinds of magic just to be "different" isn't really doing anything other than overly complicating things where there is zero need.

Some like different mechanical implementations for their individual playstyle preferences.

In 3.5 I thought the warlock from Complete Arcane was a great option for those who wanted to be a magical character without the resource management tracking of a Vancian wizard.

I was a big fan of the psionic focus mechanics in 3e and I know a lot of people liked having a spell point option that psionic classes provided instead of Vancian slot casting.

One of the strengths of 3e was the wide range of mechanical options to do things that could match different playstyle and mechanics preferences.

 

[Minigiant]

Superhero fiction comes to mind as often having magic be distinct from other super powers.

I remember the superhero MMOs from back in the day. Many of them had classes or subclasses and shoved magic into its own catergory because most comic characters didn't use magic.

I played DCUO, Magic was an origin option along with Meta and Tech. In D&D terms it would be Magic, Items, and Race. That's before you got to powersets where Sorcery and Mental powers were the different powers. So your Kryptonian/Martian/Lantern powers wouldn't be magic.

Superman's weakness to magic is actually an occasionally used plotpoint.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Superhero fiction comes to mind as often having magic be distinct from other super powers.

Some like different mechanical implementations for their individual playstyle preferences.

In 3.5 I thought the warlock from Complete Arcane was a great option for those who wanted to be a magical character without the resource management tracking of a Vancian wizard.

I was a big fan of the psionic focus mechanics in 3e and I know a lot of people liked having a spell point option that psionic classes provided instead of Vancian slot casting.

One of the strengths of 3e was the wide range of mechanical options to do things that could match different playstyle and mechanics preferences.

I remember the superhero MMOs from back in the day. Many of them had classes or subclasses and shoved magic into its own catergory because most comic characters didn't use magic.

I played DCUO, Magic was an origin option along with Meta and Tech. In D&D terms it would be Magic, Items, and Race. That's before you got to powersets where Sorcery and Mental powers were the different powers. So your Kryptonian/Martian/Lantern powers wouldn't be magic.

Superman's weakness to magic is actually an occasionally used plotpoint.

haveing both seem rare in general but even tvtrops have a page for it thus it is simply rare not non-existent.

 

[Minigiant]

haveing both seem rare in general but even tvtrops have a page for it thus it is simply rare not non-existent.

I agree.

Media and Genre that have magical and nonmagical supernatural effects are rare. Most series and media only does one and at best splits it into 2-3 paths/schools/sides.

D&D, Warhammer, DC, Marvel and their clones are really the majority of the media that does magic and disconnected nonmagic.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I agree.

Media and Genre that have magical and nonmagical supernatural effects are rare. Most series and media only does one and at best splits it into 2-3 paths/schools/sides.

D&D, Warhammer, DC, Marvel and their clones are really the majority of the media that does magic and disconnected nonmagic.

media, where magic is both available arcane and divine are still rare so it is more likely most setting only really have one idea but dnd is made to more or less have as many settings as possible so that is not an argument against it in the case of dnd.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I could buy psionics being a different type of magic like arcane is different from divine. Not that I'm sure what that difference would metaphysically be. It could be that psionic is channelling your internal power instead of the ambient weave like arcane does or getting it from a greater being like with the divine. But that would make sorcery psionics...

That it would not be magic at all, is simply silly. Levitating things with your mind is magic, and calling it something else doesn't change that. (Yes, Force is space magic.)

 

[Mind of tempest]

I could buy psionics being a different type of magic like arcane is different from divine. Not that I'm sure what that difference would metaphysically be. It could be that psionic is channelling your internal power instead of the ambient weave like arcane does or getting it from a greater being like with the divine. But that would make sorcery psionics...

That it would not be magic at all, is simply silly. Levitating things with your mind is magic, and calling it something else doesn't change that. (Yes, Force is space magic.)

is ki the same thing as sorcery then?

 

[Minigiant]

I could buy psionics being a different type of magic like arcane is different from divine. Not that I'm sure what that difference would metaphysically be. It could be that psionic is channelling your internal power instead of the ambient weave like arcane does or getting it from a greater being like with the divine. But that would make sorcery psionics...

That it would not be magic at all, is simply silly. Levitating things with your mind is magic, and calling it something else doesn't change that. (Yes, Force is space magic.)

Well the point is whether something that doesn't use the same systems and connections are the same.

For example D&D arcane or divine magic are connected to a Weave or Aether or something and are under the control of a God of Magic or the deity that crates or grants the effect.

Now if Psionics or Ki comes from something else. If gods cannot manipulate the system of psi or ki and no dirty had domain over psi or ki nor can grant it...
...is it the same as normal magic?

Or can gods control psi and ki. Can Moradin or Zeus give you Psionics or turn you into a monk?

That's the question.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

is ki the same thing as sorcery then?

I think it is very similar, yes.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Well the point is whether something that doesn't use the same systems and connections are the same.

For example D&D arcane or divine magic are connected to a Weave or Aether or something and are under the control of a God of Magic or the deity that crates or grants the effect.

Now if Psionics or Ki comes from something else. If gods cannot manipulate the system of psi or ki and no dirty had domain over psi or ki nor can grant it...
...is it the same as normal magic?

This sounds like rather convoluted metaphysical model. Also what that 'something else' is?

Or can gods control psi and ki. Can Moradin or Zeus give you Psionics or turn you into a monk?

That's the question.

I mean monks are based on members of religious organisations, so it would be actually somewhat weird if their powers were completely disconnected from the divine...