D&D General What does "magic" mean? [Read carefully, you can't change your vote]

[Voadam]

Yeah, it appears in the Wizard's Spell Compendium in the 1990s. The source, I believe, is one of the Pages of the Mages articles that ran in Dragon, considering it is listed as being in a specific wizard's spellbook.

Correct, Pages from the Mages V in issue 100 page 13 which was 1e AD&D. Later updated to 2e in Forgotten Realms Adventures and then in the Wizard's Spell Compendium Volume 1.

Bladethirst (Alteration)
Level: 2
Range: Touch
Duration: 1 round
Area of Effect: Blade(s) of one weapon
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Saving Throw: None
Explanation/Description: By means of a pinch of powdered silver, adamantite, or mithral, and at least a drop of (human) blood, the caster endows the blade (or blades) of an edged weapon with a + 3 bonus to hit on the following round only.
This temporary magic is visible as a blue-white glow about the weapon, and fades when the blade strikes a creature or the spell expires, whichever first occurs. The weapon must be touched by the caster, and can be wielded by the caster or any creature but if it is thrown, cast, or launched (i.e., a fired missile weapon such as an arrow), the + 3 bonus will not apply. (Note that an arrow held to stab like a dagger would gain the bonus.) The weapon does not gain a + 3 bonus on damage, but is considered magical for to hit purposes on the round following spellcasting, and if it must make a saving throw during that round, it gains a + 3 bonus on the save. (Polearms such as spears and halberds are edged weapons, but spiked weapons such as a flail or a morning star are not.)

 

[Voadam]

Whether or not 1st ed allowed for it under the rules, the point is some people are interested in that sort of thing, regardless of edition, and rules that support it are nice to have, and could be added to just about any version of D&D. Being literally part of 1e's core experience is not relevant to wanting that material.

I was in a 1e long term campaign where my magic-user learned a 6th level Total Dweomer Analysis spell that another PC MU had researched that I think as part of it could analyze the breakdown of how a magic item was crafted so you could get a formula out of an existing item for making similar ones.

The 1e DMG did have rules for PCs making magic items on page 116 involving suggested in-depth processes even though the specifics for individual items were not detailed like in 3e. It did say potions could be made starting at 7th level and other magic items generally around 11th or 12 levels.

Reverse engineering seemed a reasonable method of researching how to do so if you did not have access to direct instructions and formula.

 

[Baron Opal II]

My point is, the whole idea of "players will want to reverse engineer" stuff is something that, outside of 3e, has never been supported in D&D. Arguing that stuff needs to be created "by the rules" seems very strange when the overwhelming majority of the game material ever published for D&D, outside of 3e, didn't give even the slightest nod towards it.

As others pointed out, in the AD&D DMG there were rules for enchanting items and spell research. Also, there were examples in the MM where you could combine spells and spend gold for rare components to create things- the homunculus and golems.

But, no, there wasn't anything really clear or concise if that's what you mean by "supported". (Which is completely reasonable.) I think that how every table did such things was very idiosyncratic. As time has gone on it has become less so, although 5e has become more vague than 1e was. There are a number of aspects that have been left to DM discretion.

 

[Hussar]

Nope.

Balance can be anything. Mechanics. Lore. Niches. Narrative.

5e magic is mechanical balance. However the balance of scope and range is bordering that of 3e. It's the mechanical balance that keeps the scope unbalance hidden.

Psionics is now magic so magic can do all the telepathic, telekinetic, and ectoplasmic stuff.
Ki is now magic. So now magic helps you punch and dodge.
Otherworldly and otherdimensional stuff is magic.
Trunames and vestiges were attempted to made into normal magic.
And now the magic is getting easier. Warlocks are using spells with weak explanation of the difference between warlocks and sorcerers. Warrior magic is just spells. Artificer magic binds infusions, magic items, and spells together. Classes share spells in the lists a lot easier.

So now every aspect of D&D is being connected into the same Weave or Nexus or Ether or Aether or Force as magic. This makes everything supernatural magic. And alot of the natural as well.

Or in simple terms: The Magic to Non-magic Scale is unbalanced. The Magic to Reality Scale is unbalanced.

I'm just not seeing it. It was always just magic. This is just saying it more clearly than trying to pretend that truenaming or ki or psionics wasn't magic. It was always magic.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm just not seeing it. It was always just magic. This is just saying it more clearly than trying to pretend that truenaming or ki or psionics wasn't magic. It was always magic.

To me, that is a very reductive view of what I think should be a rich and varied fantasy world.

 

[Hussar]

As others pointed out, in the AD&D DMG there were rules for enchanting items and spell research. Also, there were examples in the MM where you could combine spells and spend gold for rare components to create things- the homunculus and golems.

But, no, there wasn't anything really clear or concise if that's what you mean by "supported". (Which is completely reasonable.) I think that how every table did such things was very idiosyncratic. As time has gone on it has become less so, although 5e has become more vague than 1e was. There are a number of aspects that have been left to DM discretion.

I think calling the information in the 1e DMG "rules" is stretching the definition considerably. They had a couple of suggestions, and that was about it. I'd never heard of anyone actually crafting a magic item in AD&D. Heck, I wasn't even aware of the potion crafting suggestions until well into 2e when a player pointed it out.

Crafting was certainly never part of my D&D experience until 3e.

 

[Hussar]

To me, that is a very reductive view of what I think should be a rich and varied fantasy world.

Pretending that psionics isn't magic isn't "rich and varied" it's just burying the lede. It's pretty much only D&D that tries to quantify different kinds of "magic" like this. Genre fiction generally doesn't. You just have "magic" and that's it.

Pretending that you need fifteen different kinds of magic just to be "different" isn't really doing anything other than overly complicating things where there is zero need.

 

[Minigiant]

I'm just not seeing it. It was always just magic. This is just saying it more clearly than trying to pretend that truenaming or ki or psionics wasn't magic. It was always magic.

It wasn't always magic. Not even close. That's the whole point of the poll.

Ki and psionics wasn't magic until 5e.
Truenaming was "magic" as is it was the source of supernatural effects and magical effects.

 

[Minigiant]

Pretending that psionics isn't magic isn't "rich and varied" it's just burying the lede. It's pretty much only D&D that tries to quantify different kinds of "magic" like this. Genre fiction generally doesn't. You just have "magic" and that's it.

Pretending that you need fifteen different kinds of magic just to be "different" isn't really doing anything other than overly complicating things where there is zero need.

I like I said before. Few genres have multiple type of supernatural effects. And they force restrictions on them.

Fantasy gaming like D&D and Warhammer are the few genre that does multiple types of supernatural effects. For example, Greenskin Waaagh! Magic isn't even magic. It's pretty much psionics as it is powered by their brains and not chaos winds. It's called magic because the beings on the planet are too dumb or uninterested to tell the difference. It's techincally seperate from magic but the mechanics are keptthe same for ease of play.

But D&D is one of the few games that says magic does everything. And now in 5e, everything is magic. It's taking the easy route to not have to teach new mechanics and lore. And most of the specialness is lost in the process.

 

[Lanefan]

I think calling the information in the 1e DMG "rules" is stretching the definition considerably. They had a couple of suggestions, and that was about it. I'd never heard of anyone actually crafting a magic item in AD&D.

Other than potions and scrolls, this is likely due in large part to PCs failing to reach the required levels.

When the game soft-caps at name level (around 9th-10th) but item-crafting doesn't really start till 11th it's hardly surprising it didn't come up very often.