D&D General What does "magic" mean? [Read carefully, you can't change your vote]

[Lanefan]

Oh sure. I get the approach even if I don’t follow it. The simulationist approach certainly has its advocates.

I just don’t see how an adnd player would go down that route.

I've been something of a small-s simulationist all the way along, I suppose; and 1e can be kitbashed to handle a reasonable amount of simulation.

 

[Hussar]

Believe it or not, I maintain there's some things 3e largely got right.

Some of the things in the 1e modules probably couldn't be reverse engineered by God. That said, for most of 'em I can usually come up with something if I have to.

That pool, for example. If someone wanted to make one of those in my game it'd probably be based around adding a vial of any liquid found on and brought from the Elemental Plane of Chaos* (to provide the randomness) to a pool of clear water blessed by a Chaotic deity, then casting a ceremonial Bladethirst spell on it (ideally this is cast by a Cleric to the same deity who blessed the water) followed quickly by a Permanency spell from anyone. Most if not all of the item's monetary costs would go into a sacrifice to the deity who blesses the pool.

So that boils down to two spells, a blessing (or consecration?), some exotic material, and some money or goods for the sacrifice. Pretty straightforward stuff, really.

* - or the Dragonlance equivalent, given as this is a Dragonlance-setting pool.

Err, none of those things exist in 1e D&D. What's the "Elemental Plane of Chaos"? I don't believe that exists in D&D period, but, maybe it's just something I missed. "Bladethirst"? Never heard of it. Certainly not an AD&D spell. How much is the monetary cost of the sacrifice and what is its nature? The only thing you listed that actually exists in the game is Permanency. The rest of it you just made up on the fly and is no different than how 5e, or 4e for that matter, handles it.

 

[Hussar]

I've been something of a small-s simulationist all the way along, I suppose; and 1e can be kitbashed to handle a reasonable amount of simulation.

IOW, the game doesn't actually do that. And in order to make it do that, you have to rewrite considerable sections of the game. But, apparently, when other editions do the exact same thing, that's bad? You can kit bash 5e or 4e exactly the same way. Easier maybe since you don't have to come up with specifics if you use the downtime system in 5e or the ritual system in 4e.

 

[Voadam]

Err, none of those things exist in 1e D&D. What's the "Elemental Plane of Chaos"? I don't believe that exists in D&D period, but, maybe it's just something I missed. "Bladethirst"? Never heard of it. Certainly not an AD&D spell. How much is the monetary cost of the sacrifice and what is its nature? The only thing you listed that actually exists in the game is Permanency. The rest of it you just made up on the fly and is no different than how 5e, or 4e for that matter, handles it.

Bladethirst
(Alteration)
Level: 2
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 2
Duration: 1 rd.
Area of Effect: 1 bladed weapon
Saving Throw: None
For the round following the casting of this
spell, any single-edged, slashing weapon is
granted a +3 bonus to hit (but not to damage).
The blade ignites with a fiery blue-white glow
visible to all, which fades once the weapon has
struck an opponent or at the end of the next
round, whichever comes first. This bonus is in
addition to any Strength bonus or inherent magical
bonus of the item. A sword +1 provided with
this spell will strike with a +4 bonus the next
round, then return to being a +1 blade.
The material component of bladethirst is a drop
of blood and a pinch of powdered silver. Only one
bladethirst spell can be placed on an item at one
time. This spell cannot be made permanent.
Notes: Uncommon. Known to be in Sabirine's
Specular.

 

[billd91]

Bladethirst
(Alteration)
Level: 2
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 2
Duration: 1 rd.
Area of Effect: 1 bladed weapon
Saving Throw: None
For the round following the casting of this
spell, any single-edged, slashing weapon is
granted a +3 bonus to hit (but not to damage).
The blade ignites with a fiery blue-white glow
visible to all, which fades once the weapon has
struck an opponent or at the end of the next
round, whichever comes first. This bonus is in
addition to any Strength bonus or inherent magical
bonus of the item. A sword +1 provided with
this spell will strike with a +4 bonus the next
round, then return to being a +1 blade.
The material component of bladethirst is a drop
of blood and a pinch of powdered silver. Only one
bladethirst spell can be placed on an item at one
time. This spell cannot be made permanent.
Notes: Uncommon. Known to be in Sabirine's
Specular.

Yeah, it appears in the Wizard's Spell Compendium in the 1990s. The source, I believe, is one of the Pages of the Mages articles that ran in Dragon, considering it is listed as being in a specific wizard's spellbook.

 

[Hussar]

Not sure how that is countering my point though. A bit of Googling, it's a 2nd Edition spell that appears in Forgotten Realms Adventures (apparently). So, my point does stand then. None of the things listed exist in 1e D&D. So, it's pretty hard to claim that you can reverse engineer the effect of a 1e Module (which all Dragonlance modules were) using 1e mechanics.

3e really is the outlier here when it comes to this sort of soft simulationism. None of the other editions let you actually do this.

 

[Lanefan]

Err, none of those things exist in 1e D&D. What's the "Elemental Plane of Chaos"? I don't believe that exists in D&D period, but, maybe it's just something I missed. "Bladethirst"? Never heard of it. Certainly not an AD&D spell. How much is the monetary cost of the sacrifice and what is its nature? The only thing you listed that actually exists in the game is Permanency. The rest of it you just made up on the fly and is no different than how 5e, or 4e for that matter, handles it.

Bladethirst is an old spell, turns out it's from 2e so my mistake there (edit: as so noted by @Voadam and others), that gives a bladed weapon an extra +3 for the round after casting. It was the first suitable spell that leaped to mind while typing my earlier post. Shillelagh, which I know to be core 1e, would work as well.

The monetary value of the sacrifice would be somewhere in the 40-50K g.p. range (it's a Chaotic deity so of course there'll be a random element!) and can be comprised of anything of suitable value.

As for the Plane of Chaos, as cosmology is tied to setting and setting is something under the DM's purview, I didn't see an issue with using a homebrew plane. You could, if desired, substitute any generally-Chaotic plane (e.g. the home plane of a Chaotic deity) for this.

 

[Hussar]

Shillelagh only works on clubs and is a druid spell only. Doesn't seem to have much to do with enchanting armor or shields. Or weapons either. And, how did you determine that GP value? Other than just a more or less randomly picked number?

My point is, the whole idea of "players will want to reverse engineer" stuff is something that, outside of 3e, has never been supported in D&D. Arguing that stuff needs to be created "by the rules" seems very strange when the overwhelming majority of the game material ever published for D&D, outside of 3e, didn't give even the slightest nod towards it.

Then again, I've never actually had a player do this. I've never had a player ask me how demons gate other demons, to pick a random example. They aren't wizards, they certainly aren't casting a Gate spell. So, how do they do it? No idea, and frankly, don't care.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Shillelagh only works on clubs and is a druid spell only. Doesn't seem to have much to do with enchanting armor or shields. Or weapons either. And, how did you determine that GP value? Other than just a more or less randomly picked number?

My point is, the whole idea of "players will want to reverse engineer" stuff is something that, outside of 3e, has never been supported in D&D. Arguing that stuff needs to be created "by the rules" seems very strange when the overwhelming majority of the game material ever published for D&D, outside of 3e, didn't give even the slightest nod towards it.

Then again, I've never actually had a player do this. I've never had a player ask me how demons gate other demons, to pick a random example. They aren't wizards, they certainly aren't casting a Gate spell. So, how do they do it? No idea, and frankly, don't care.

Whether or not 1st ed allowed for it under the rules, the point is some people are interested in that sort of thing, regardless of edition, and rules that support it are nice to have, and could be added to just about any version of D&D. Being literally part of 1e's core experience is not relevant to wanting that material.

 

[Minigiant]

I'm sorry. I'm not following your argument. How is it unbalanced when there is no mechanical imbalance? Balance only refers to mechanical balance doesn't it?

Nope.

Balance can be anything. Mechanics. Lore. Niches. Narrative.

5e magic is mechanical balance. However the balance of scope and range is bordering that of 3e. It's the mechanical balance that keeps the scope unbalance hidden.

Psionics is now magic so magic can do all the telepathic, telekinetic, and ectoplasmic stuff.
Ki is now magic. So now magic helps you punch and dodge.
Otherworldly and otherdimensional stuff is magic.
Trunames and vestiges were attempted to made into normal magic.
And now the magic is getting easier. Warlocks are using spells with weak explanation of the difference between warlocks and sorcerers. Warrior magic is just spells. Artificer magic binds infusions, magic items, and spells together. Classes share spells in the lists a lot easier.

So now every aspect of D&D is being connected into the same Weave or Nexus or Ether or Aether or Force as magic. This makes everything supernatural magic. And alot of the natural as well.

Or in simple terms: The Magic to Non-magic Scale is unbalanced. The Magic to Reality Scale is unbalanced.