what does "-" mean in various line entries in monster manual(s) stat blocks?

[nijineko]

I have noticed that several places there is a "—" for the entry in a given line for different monsters in various books, monster manuals and other listings for monsters. My understanding of this was that it means a "non-ability". For example, when it is listed in place of an ability score, it means that it does not have that ability at all.

I noticed one where the advancement entry was given as "—", instead of the usual list of hit dice range and size changes, or the less common "by character class" entry.

I was wondering if this meant that advancement was a non-ability, or in other words, that it cannot advance via character class or hit dice at all? and then it would not be able to gain feats or skill points? and by extension, since hit dice, character levels, and templates are listed under the "improving monsters" section of the srd, would such a creature be restricted from having templates applied as well, since 'advancement' is a complete non-ability?

 

[lordxaviar]

I have noticed that several places there is a "-" for the entry in a given line for different monsters in various books, monster manuals and other listings for monsters. My understanding of this was that it means a "non-ability". For example, when it is listed in place of an ability score, it means that it does not have that ability at all.

I noticed one where the advancement entry was given as "-", instead of the usual list of hit dice range and size changes, or the less common "by character class" entry.

I was wondering if this meant that advancement was a non-ability, or in other words, that it cannot advance via character class or hit dice at all? and then it would not be able to gain feats or skill points? and by extension, since hit dice, character levels, and templates are listed under the "improving monsters" section of the srd, would such a creature be restricted from having templates applied as well, since 'advancement' is a complete non-ability?

I would say yes to the beginning... but as for templates, they are considered unique individuals and there fore not necessarily held to the same standard and drawbacks as the typical creature.. so in that case I would not agree and say if you were increasing the over all str. of a creature than all would advance.

 

[Jimlock]

I have noticed that several places there is a "-" for the entry in a given line for different monsters in various books, monster manuals and other listings for monsters. My understanding of this was that it means a "non-ability". For example, when it is listed in place of an ability score, it means that it does not have that ability at all.

I noticed one where the advancement entry was given as "-", instead of the usual list of hit dice range and size changes, or the less common "by character class" entry.

I was wondering if this meant that advancement was a non-ability, or in other words, that it cannot advance via character class or hit dice at all? and then it would not be able to gain feats or skill points? and by extension, since hit dice, character levels, and templates are listed under the "improving monsters" section of the srd, would such a creature be restricted from having templates applied as well, since 'advancement' is a complete non-ability?

I assume that your assumption is correct.

I remember reading what you say in MM1...but I can't seem to find it...

 

[Jack Simth]

I have noticed that several places there is a "-" for the entry in a given line for different monsters in various books, monster manuals and other listings for monsters. My understanding of this was that it means a "non-ability". For example, when it is listed in place of an ability score, it means that it does not have that ability at all.

I noticed one where the advancement entry was given as "-", instead of the usual list of hit dice range and size changes, or the less common "by character class" entry.

I was wondering if this meant that advancement was a non-ability, or in other words, that it cannot advance via character class or hit dice at all? and then it would not be able to gain feats or skill points? and by extension, since hit dice, character levels, and templates are listed under the "improving monsters" section of the srd, would such a creature be restricted from having templates applied as well, since 'advancement' is a complete non-ability?

In all cases, "-" means some variation of "not applicable". Undead all have a "-" for their Con score. Mindless stuff all has a "-" for their Int score. "-" under "Level Adjustment" means "Not suitable for a player race".

In that vein, "-" under "Advancement" means "do not advance this creature under normal circumstances"

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

In all cases, "-" means some variation of "not applicable". Undead all have a "-" for their Con score. Mindless stuff all has a "-" for their Int score. "-" under "Level Adjustment" means "Not suitable for a player race".

In that vein, "-" under "Advancement" means "do not advance this creature under normal circumstances"

Exactly so.

 

[Tovec]

I was wondering if this meant that advancement was a non-ability, or in other words, that it cannot advance via character class or hit dice at all? and then it would not be able to gain feats or skill points? and by extension, since hit dice, character levels, and templates are listed under the "improving monsters" section of the srd, would such a creature be restricted from having templates applied as well, since 'advancement' is a complete non-ability?

Do you have any examples where it says non-available advancement though HD or class levels? I can't find any examples in my MM but I'm sure they exist. My best guess would have been plants, swarms, vermin, etc. but each I look at is missing that entry where I expect to find it.

Also as for the name of it, my suggestion would be "NONE" not "Not Available".

 

[Greenfield]

Some don't list any advancement at all.

The one other place I see the "-" mark in the MM is for "Level adjustment". Some took that to mean "zero", but the correct reading is, "Don't even think about it, no DM in their right mind would ever let you play one."

Then, of course, they came out with Savage Species, which filled in a lot of those "-" marks.

 

[nijineko]

well, this came up again about the old argument as to whether psicrystals advance and gain hd, and thus feats and skill points, and be eligible for class levels.

the arguments for this are that they have hit dice which is = master's so it technically grows, have int score, and the monster entry for psicrystals in the expanded psionics book give the sample psicrystal having a feat, which is not the alertness feat that the psicrystal grants. there was one other thing, but i'm not recalling it right now.

the arguments against it are that a psicrystal is a feat that mimics a construct, not an actual independent creature, the other forms of familiar/mount/animal companion and the specified and restricted progression, and the fact that when separated from the master (as in master dies, or dismissed) they revert and not keep abilities.

just the other day i noticed the "-" line in the advancement chart. which got me to thinking that if advancement is a non-ability, then that would settle that whole discussion, once and for all. so i thought i would put it to the community, and draw from your wisdom and experience.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

[editor's hat on]The hyphen/dash/minus, en-dash, and em-dash (-, and –, and —) aren't the same things.

The use you are asking about in the monster tables is the "—", not "-"

Just sayin'.

 

[Jack Simth]

[editor's hat on]The hyphen/dash/minus, en-dash, and em-dash (-, and –, and —) aren't the same things.

The use you are asking about in the monster tables is the "—", not "-"

Just sayin'.

Yes, but one is significantly more work (relatively speaking) to put into a post than is the other, and essentially everyone knows what's intended, even if the detail that it's technically incorrect is lost on them.