What does Videogamey mean to you?

[FireLance]

And it's hard to pare either my own or Oran77's definition down to a nice shortable quote, but I think that if you read both you'll find the idea of reducing player choice and DM dependency are aspects of both of our definitions. So very clearly, amongst the people who wrote all the above, there is some clear idea of what they mean and communication is taking place between us. Furthermore, there are several people that tried to answer the question with examples, whose objections to the examples would I think fit into one or more of the attempts by others in the thread to generalize.

So, your definition of "videogamey" is that a game system is "videogamey" if it prohibits a player from taking an action even though the consensus of all the players at the table is that it should be possible?

If the above was done by a human DM, we would call it "railroading". Hence, a game system is videogamey if the system (instead of the DM) railroads the players?

EDIT to add: But to make a broader point, restrictions of choice and action may be features of many videogames, but they are not a characteristic unique to them. In fact, any interactive medium that does not have a human on the other end to adjudicate the consequences of the players' actions will feature such restrictions to some extent: Choose Your Own Adventure/Fighting Fantasy style gamebooks are prime examples of this. And, as I have alluded to before, if the key issue is that of game systems that restrict player choice and action, that can be discussed on its own merit without using the term "videogamey", which, IMO, doesn't add anything to the discussion.

If you agree with FireLance, record the codeword "Bright Idea" and go to Section 400.
If you disagree with FireLance, record the codeword "Change Lightbulb" and go to Section 14.

 

[Celebrim]

So, your definition of "videogamey" is that a game system is "videogamey" if it prohibits a player from taking an action even though the consensus of all the players at the table is that it should be possible?

If the above was done by a human DM, we would call it "railroading". Hence, a game system is videogamey if the system (instead of the DM) railroads the players?

I'm not sure I'd put it that way exactly, but the idea has appeared in at least six different posters definition of 'videogamey', so in essense, 'Yes'.

Let me try to define the idea more formally. If system tends to imply a social contract where it is not permitted by any player to make a proposition which has a resolution outside the structure of the formal rules, then this is 'videogamey' because one of the attributes of video games is that they are unable to handle any player proposition that has not been described by the game designer. For example, in the gamespace described by the video game, 'Put the ball in the crate' may be a valid proposition, but if the resolution of the proposition lies outside of the game's rules framework, then it is not a valid proposition in the game. If a PnP RPG has this property or encourages this property, then it is 'videogamey'.

Note that, as I said in my earlier post, certain aspects common to many tournament modules such as, "No amount of force can open this door without the golden key", are in this sense 'videogamey' even though example may preexist most videogames because they are not typical features of RPGs (nor even ones necessarily encouraged except within the framework of a tournament module) but they are ubiquitous to computer RPGs.

Also note that while I agree that this is 'videogamey', I differed from certain other posters in offering a definition of 'videogamey' that was broad and encompassed a large number of related ideas (exactly how closely they are related even I'm not yet sure). I don't argue that this or that there is one particular thing which is 'videogamey', because 'video games' encompass a large number of features which are distinctive from traditional RPGs.

 

[FireLance]

Let me try to define the idea more formally. If system tends to imply a social contract where it is not permitted by any player to make a proposition which has a resolution outside the structure of the formal rules, then this is 'videogamey' because one of the attributes of video games is that they are unable to handle any player proposition that has not been described by the game designer. For example, in the gamespace described by the video game, 'Put the ball in the crate' may be a valid proposition, but if the resolution of the proposition lies outside of the game's rules framework, then it is not a valid proposition in the game. If a PnP RPG has this property or encourages this property, then it is 'videogamey'.

I had actually edited my post to throw in an additional point which only occured to me later, but since you've replied in the interim, I'll just repeat it here:

But to make a broader point, restrictions of choice and action (or, as you put it above, "a proposition which has a resolution outside the structure of the formal rules") may be features of many videogames, but they are not a characteristic unique to them. In fact, any interactive medium that does not have a human on the other end to adjudicate the consequences of the players' actions will feature such restrictions to some extent: Choose Your Own Adventure/Fighting Fantasy style gamebooks are prime examples of this. And, as I have alluded to before, if the key issue is that of game systems that restrict player choice and action, that can be discussed on its own merit without using the term "videogamey", which, IMO, doesn't add anything to the discussion.

 

[Celebrim]

But to make a broader point, restrictions of choice and action (or, as you put it above, "a proposition which has a resolution outside the structure of the formal rules") may be features of many videogames, but they are not a characteristic unique to them. In fact, any interactive medium that does not have a human on the other end to adjudicate the consequences of the players' actions will feature such restrictions to some extent: Choose Your Own Adventure/Fighting Fantasy style gamebooks are prime examples of this.

I agree. And at several times when trying to compose a post I've thought about bringing 'choose your own adventure' style books (particularly those like the Lone Wolf books that allowed for character advancement) as examples of solo RPGs which share with cRPG's this characteristic (and others). You are correct that interactive media in general will share a large number of features with each other. It might also be the case that there are things which pertain more closely one sort of interactive media ('choose-you-own-adventure-y' things) than they do to another ('videogamey' things).

And eventually, if we discuss those things enough we might develop a formal language for discussing them which sounds less stupid than 'choose-your-own-adventure-y' and 'videogamey'. But in the mean time, 'videogamey' captures the heart of the idea in a way that no other phrase that readily comes to mind does. I'd gladly entertain suggestions though.

And, as I have alluded to before, if the key issue is that of game systems that restrict player choice and action, that can be discussed on its own merit without using the term "videogamey", which, IMO, doesn't add anything to the discussion.

And as I've said before, it's not at all clear that there is a single key issue to be discussed here. That's why my post mentioned five separate otherwise unrelated points which are joined I think by the idea of 'videogamey'. And they are by no means I think inclusive. I don't want to suggest that my definition is as yet all encompassing and definitive. But if we want to talk about systems that hidebound the moderator or players as thing of interest in and of itself, then sure, we can slap a label on that idea of some sort and start to talk about it as a separate thing. However, we will then not be discussing the larger class of 'videogamey things' but one specific issue pertaining thereto. And its not yet clear to me that this is the central issue, much less the sole one.

I'll tell you what doesn't add anything to the discussion IMO, and that is people who aren't adding anything to the discussion repeatedly thread crapping to say how 'videogamey' doesn't add anything to the discussion.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I think a major problem of defining what "videogaminy" is that video games and D&D always had things in common. Calling D&D videogaminy is like calling someone from the US a Canadian person. They are difference places but both are North American countries that started as European colonies that speak mostly English today.

I think when people say videogaminy they mean an favoring of the gamist philosophy over simulation or narrative philosophy.

 

[Hussar]

I'll tell you what doesn't add anything to the discussion IMO, and that is people who aren't adding anything to the discussion repeatedly thread crapping to say how 'videogamey' doesn't add anything to the discussion.

But how is that threadcrapping.

We've been hearing for TEN FREAKING YEARS how D&D is videogamey. This thread seems to be pretending that the exact same term was leveled at 3e for its entire run. "Videogamey" has been used as a perjorative term for about a decade now.

You can ignore that if you choose, but, come on. Wide eyed innocence about why people would dismiss the term out of hand is hardly believable.

Perhaps it would be equally valid to say those who prefer older editions are engaging in wearing rose tinted nostalgia glasses. After all, apparently I have no responsibility to actually explain my point. It's apparently entirely your fault if you read that negatively. I am in no way at fault for not giving an explanation.

All the hot button phrases are lazy shorthand for people who cannot be bothered to actually make a valid point but just want to threadcrap. They have no redeeming value. At best they're vague and require additional information, which pretty much negates their value in the first place, and at worse they're deliberately obfuscatory and a way to edition war snipe under the mod radar.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think that when people say "videogamey," they simply mean that something about the game reminds them of a video game- not necessarily a MMORPG (as pointed out above), or of ALL video games, but of at least one in particular.

Since it is used as a pejorative, it is probably either something they feel is handled better in video games OR something they don't like in the video game(s) it reminds them of.

In the thread so far, I have noted we have people who have posted that videogamey elements for them include (but are not limited to):

1. Elements of arcade combat games (like healing surges)
2. Elements of MMORPG gameplay (marking, aggro, roles, etc.)
3. A campaign setting that, however broad, is rigidly inflexible in what it allows and does not allow

Obviously, this covers a BROAD spectrum of games, and not everyone is as aware of or is annoyed by each aspect mentioned. So its kind of a catchall term.

So, while its broad, it does have a value as a shorthand. It lets a poster tell you that an aspect of the game annoys them in one of a spectrum of ways without belaboring the details for the umpteenth time. To quote myself, you know its "either something they feel is handled better in video games OR something they don't like in the video game(s) it reminds them of." You can then continue the discussion.

But if you, as the reader, then feel the burning need to have that person elaborate, you can ask.

 

[jdrakeh]

Widely available, instantly accessible, and appealing to many consumer demographics. Wait. . . are we supposed to be listing the negative connotations of "video gamey"?

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

So, while its broad, it does have a value as a shorthand. It lets a poster tell you that an aspect of the game annoys them in one of a spectrum of ways without belaboring the details for the umpteenth time. To quote myself, you know its "either something they feel is handled better in video games OR something they don't like in the video game(s) it reminds them of." You can then continue the discussion.

But if you, as the reader, then feel the burning need to have that person elaborate, you can ask.

But it doesn't MEAN anything. I could say that 1e D&D is very automobiley. Because I once saw a car crash and burn and I also saw a game of 1e crash and burn. But the word automobiley doesn't mean anything. It doesn't tell anyone reading my post what I mean.

It helps if you use a better word as short hand. If you say something has too many rules, people know what you mean. If you say "I don't like the lack of options" people know what you mean.

But I've seen 4e referred to as Boardgamey, Videogamey, and Cardgamey(amongst many other names). Sometimes it is referred to by 3 different people by all 3 of those names when all 3 mean the same thing: "I don't like that the game consists of prepackaged 'powers' with strict rules on their use as well as the timing and frequency of their use."

Person A may see that as Boardgamey because you feel like pieces on a board where the only actions you can take are like a list from a board game.

Person B may see it as Videogamey since in WoW you get to select from a list of prepackaged powers which you can only activate so often.

Person C may see it as Cardgamey because you are limited in your options, like the cards that are in your hand. Which all come in prepacked "abilities" which are all written on the card.

When the terms they use aren't helpful for the discussion at all because none of those terms MEAN anything to me. Especially considering the problem they are pointing out isn't "videogamey" because it's also boardgamey and cardgamey as well.

Then again, it's just as likely that when the person said "videogamey" they meant that the pictures in the book reminded them of WoW characters and they can't get past that.

It's better to say what you mean than say something that reminds different people of different things. After all, I associate video games with "Awesome" so every time someone says "It's videogamey" I'm all "Darn right it is!"

 

[TwinBahamut]

I'll tell you what doesn't add anything to the discussion IMO, and that is people who aren't adding anything to the discussion repeatedly thread crapping to say how 'videogamey' doesn't add anything to the discussion.

People like me pitching in to say that "videogamey" doesn't mean anything is far from "threadcrapping". I am addressing the very point of the thread. The OP asked us what "videogamey" meant to us, and my response is "an elitist pejorative that says nothing".

What that means is that every last time someone uses the term "videogamey", I think they are using it as an empty elitist pejorative. It means that regardless of whatever you might mean when you say "videogamey", or what someone else might mean when they use the term "videogamey", I will interpret it in that particular way. It is not an opinion you can just toss aside; it is an absolute hurdle to using "videogamey" as common shorthand in a discussion that you can't ignore.

Every reader interprets every word through the lens of their own experiences and perceptions. You can't expect a reader to immediately understand your use of the word and accept it. Even if you get a hundred people to agree on precisely what the term "videogamey" means (and I doubt I will see even that), it will still be problematic if there are another hundred people who have a very different idea on what it means.